The Crusade

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luminier
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The Crusade

#1 Post by luminier » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:01 pm

Before I start, I jsut want to say that i was torn about whether to put this here in Roleplay or in OOC. But I figured it belonged here more than any other topic. However I figure this is pretty common knowledge.

Crusaders had begun to target recently some new... people in light of their new "hobbies". Some find this really unfair and some have expressed how the game isn't fun anymore and they want to stop playing. In my view, this game has fairly few players and losing more would kind of suck.

This is more aimed at admins, but, is there some middle ground we could come to here? As much as the Crusade attempts to tell people what they are doing wrong they just seem to want to do more of it, which is natural I suppose. Tell a kid to not do something and he does it.

But personally I don't want to do something IG that will make people quit. Does anyone have any ideas they want to express about implied occurances in the game? Or does everyone understand and this is all just in my head.

Thanks! poLuminier
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#2 Post by isengoo » Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:26 pm

It is a bit hard to frame a response to this, but bear with me.

I assume that the hobbies in question are backstabbing and the people in question are the Rangers. This being assumed, I think it was just a misguided judgment of where to focus the zealous attention of said Crusade. Sure, backstabbing is bad, the code tells us this. Are the Rangers overall bad because of it? According to the Crusader ethos, maybe. Are the Rangers bad enough to warrant indiscriminate killing and hunting, all while ignoring greater threats in the game world? I would have to say no (my opinion, feel free to disagree).

Furthermore, I am going to just take for granted (as most do) that the Crusaders, as a guild, are a very powerful force in Geas. Now, taking that, I think an important factor in deciding who to attack for how long, how much money to levy from them, whatever, is, "Is this actually fun for anyone?" Sure, it may be fun for you guys, but believe me when I say that being hunted constantly and ambushed from all directions in no-win scenarios isn't exactly the way I, or most people, like to spend their leisure time.

I know this sounds a lot like whining, but please do not take it as so. I loved the fight Isengorn had with Rex today, it was a great compromise and made the game fun, and I'd like to see more of these 'fair fight' scenarios. Could just be Asral talking, who knows :P

My main idea is just that there are greater offenses around than Rangers backstabbing orcs, so why get all verklempt about them? Especially when they mostly do good.

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#3 Post by Blizt » Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:57 pm

Well, being on the end of those "focused" attacks, I should be a bit
biased.....but I am not.

I agree with what the Crusaders are doing, to an extent.
There is much more to the story than just backstabbing.

This is a touchy topic, and I will not go into details about it, but peoples actions need to have consequences. Some people had no excuse for what they did, and had no logic behind it, they just did it because "they could get away with it"

Now that action is being taken, it should help weed out some problems that were there for a long time.

If people do not like the way things are being done, they have many different options to go about changing them. They could change their actions, or their religions, leave one guild and join another, etc......
No one should be getting upset over this.
Although, yeah Isengoo is correct when he says it sucks being at the end of ambushes from every direction.........but that is what you get when you piss them off.

The world our characters live in is a fantasy world, with a fantasy setting.
It is not politically correct. If someone gets offended because they were killed, they are not dead forever. They can change their actions, or fight back. They always have those options.

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#4 Post by isengoo » Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:02 pm

I believe the backstabbing thing is silly, to be honest. If this was a real medieval setting, the doctrine of double effect would take care of this no problem. Backstab a bad guy? No problem for a 'good' guy, technically. Justifiable, morally.

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#5 Post by luminier » Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:05 pm

Yes I apologize for being vague it was however my intention... I seemed to have succeded.

Forgive me if I delve to in character about this topic but I don't want this to get blown anymore out of proportion.

To Blizt - I think you have essentially nailed exactly what I was hinting at. Backstabbing is but a small part of the story... I think a mail was sent to certain people backing up our "ambushes" and such. Basically people tend to do things because they would indeed easily get away with them and do it in secret and no have anyone know, hurting no one.

But it is the job of a Crusader to prevent this from happening. Most people see attacks from the Crusade as "oh those bullies off to kill more innocence" and in many ways they are seen as Sathonite Priests. Well hey fair enough everyone is entitled to their in game opinion. But changing your actions to be good and prevent death as Blizt mentioned is also a valid method of not getting attacked. Or... forming a large revolution that you probably.... won't win *cough*.

To Isengoo - The Crusade was made for the exact thing they are doing now. They were "soft" at a time but we have returned to a more "hard" method of playing. While this is more accurate it is not worth having less people play for the sake of being more accurate, in my opinion. Also we aren't ignoring the Sathos... they just haven't been playing all that much... =P. Finally backstabbing.... backstabbing while not the only thing causing the attacks is a part of it. Also backstabbing anything is just dishonest to any "good" natured character. To them you sink to the level of your enemy making you equivalent to them, thats not good... in fact it's "bad".

However I am glad you had fun with the little... hmm "duel" you had. I like hearing about how people had fun with x... not how they hated x... especially when I am one of the people causing something they hated....

An equally vague response.... enjoy!
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#6 Post by isengoo » Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:24 pm

Don't you see an obvious correlation between the Crusade being 'hard' on people and those people stopping to log on as much?

If there really is something other than backstabbing, I'd like to know, for clarification. The doctrine of double effect would pretty clearly take care of it. Backstabbing, while an immoral act in itself, is used (in this case) by an agent of good to bring about a good state of affairs in the world. The good effect (killing an evil being, making the world safe for good beings) outweighs the bad effect (using a backstab), so it should be morally justifiable.

It's really pretty simple, and I wish the code reflected this.

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backstabbing

#7 Post by vurdijak » Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:40 pm

As a somewhat passive observer of events, a former player of a fine backstabber and others, and someone who cares deeply for the success of this mud...I say this...

The issue of backstabbing is surely not something to be decided on the forum. While its important to retain our playerbase, I believe we can do this IC. If we manage to do this IC, these players will stay for longer, enjoy Geas more, and probably get wiser in the process. Learning Geas is a process, and for those who are slow learners (acceptors) like me, it can be a long process.

No player should quit because of percieved IC injustices. If anything, these very 'injustices' have kept the game interesting to me over the last several years.

You might say or think, 'Well thats easy for you to say poVurdijak, but you arent being hunted right now.' Yes I know, but believe me this mud is wonderful and worth the time invested, and yes its worth it even the face of powerful IC opposition. The paranoia sucks, but lets be realistic here...if it didnt matter, you wouldnt be paranoid.

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#8 Post by tessa » Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:46 pm

You sow what you reap, and every IC action has IC consequences. With the attitude, behaviour, and actions of the Rangers towards Crusaders, Clerics, Elvandar, and good/evil, I'm not really surprised they're being treated for acting how they do.

I would say if some people are unhappy to a point where they want to quit, they need to either clean up their act, or change their character to reflect what they want that character to actually be. I've had Tessa in sucky situations plenty of times myself. Being hated by Crusaders for being a Lurker, being hated by Lurkers for quitting the guild, etc.. But it's hard to blame others or feel bad for myself when I bring all these problems on myself due to my actions or behaviour in the game.
If there really is something other than backstabbing, I'd like to know, for clarification.
I would say it's something to learn IC. But since it was made to be known rather public in the game currently, I would say it would have something to do with Delmon worshipping Lilith and the other Rangers seemingly not caring about it until it started to directly affect the rest of them.

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#9 Post by luminier » Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:44 am

Thanks Tessa actually that was kind of the support I was looking for. To say again a point I thought was important... instead of just quitting why not try and fix your character? Tessa's character was a good example... even Luminier is. Expelled from the Crusade and then gotten even more in trouble for 'abandoning' principles and joining the Shao-Lin. Then basically having to do the exact reverse to be 'good' again. Not saying everyone has to be this drastic. But Luminiers life sucked for a long time... and he was alone too =P no real place to run. And hell that was fun. But eventually it started to get tiresome to always have to watch your back. But all the friends he made were great. Ive kinda gotten off track but Isengoo you see the point?
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#10 Post by jezz » Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:53 am

Imho, I like how crusaders play their guild, and if they find a holy ic reason to hunt down those that go against their beliefs, as it was said in the forum, either do as they tell you or try to fight them back.

With sathos right now taking a break I find it obvious crusaders focus on other characters they didn't have time to deal with while they had to take care for a satho to appear suddenly.

So yes, if crusaders harass you, do something icly and stick to the world we're creating, even if it is a world ruled by some, it was all something that was done ic, so if you don't like it, try to fix it, it will be fun.

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#11 Post by Devi » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:20 am

I know none of this is in fairplay guidelines, but personally I always think it's a lot less fun when some of the following stuff happens.

-Characters are killed without being given a reason or without a chance to escape, especially when they first return to the game. I've seen this sort of thing drive people away really quickly.

'Oh, hi, Crusader!' *chop* *head rolls* 'Hi, ranger! We're at war.' 'Oh.'

-Custom character items are destroyed. I've definitely seen this drive people away. As appealing as it seems to burn belongings, it entails not just financial consequences for the character, but sometimes months of ooc waiting time.

-Different guild members kill the same character multiple times, simply because they didn't communicate. I've seen this happen a lot. It makes a simple "yeah. we'll kill you once to teach you a lesson" into "we'll kill you once three times!"

-Grudges last a little too long. I think it's a lot more fun if characters don't hold grudges for more than an ooc year, unless they're still being instigated. This goes hand in hand with the "change and you can avoid it" bit. All parties should recognise a hunted character's efforts to change, otherwise a character can be truly unplayable. This one has almost caused me to quit playing a few times myself.

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#12 Post by Olrane » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:49 pm

While being a typical whiner (a lightly armoured Crusader enemy who has gotten insta-critted on the first strike), I do have to agree that the Crusaders are doing a fine job roleplaying. I may hate it, because it makes my life harder, but it's both necessary and good that there is someone to really stand up for what is good. It makes playing an evil character very difficult and very entertaining.

As for the backstab thing, I think it's unfortunate for the Rangers that they have to give up one of their most useful tools in the past. However, it does reflect the maturing game landscape, and there are plenty of other tools at their disposal. They have great spears and most learn to gore, which is pretty damn effective, from what I've seen. Backstab is now more in the domain of thieves, but also harder to learn for even them, if they don't want to become "outed". So there - a formerly overpowered attack is now very nicely balanced with risk and reputation consequences. There is only good in this, in my opinion.

I like the Crusade. I hate guild wars. That's just me. I don't think there's really much justification even IC for killing one guildmember for another, in this case Delmon. I understand that there's more at stake...being soft on Sathos, etc. but I still think that for everyone to have fun in this game, PK should be taken seriously. To me, that means that you tell someone why unless it's very obvious, and you don't do it indiscriminately, especially against people vastly underpowered compared to you (unless they've earned it, as often my character has).

That's my two cents. I hope I haven't misjudged or offended anyone. I know that more than once I even have been unfair in PK, attacking characters for their guild without necessarily being slighted or even hunted by them. I regret it, because I know that that is the sort of stuff that discourages play.

Sorry for rambling.

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#13 Post by Blizt » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:10 pm

I am removing my post that was formerly here.

I apologize for whining.
Last edited by Blizt on Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#14 Post by isengoo » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:35 pm

Of course, the easy response from the Crusader side is "we wouldn't act like this if people would just listen to us."

This is a fair remark, I suppose, but sometimes I think they do go a tad overboard. Why not crusade against trolls or skeletons for a change? :P

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#15 Post by Blizt » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:40 pm

I have decided to remove my whining.

I apologize for the post formerly posted here.
Last edited by Blizt on Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#16 Post by isengoo » Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:02 pm

Not so much a problem for real evil characters, who have Asador. But for semi-evil people like Asrals, with a temple in the Amwards, yeah, it is sort of irreconcilable and frustrating to think about.

But, oh well, I've resigned to it. Not much else can be done.

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#17 Post by jezz » Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:58 am

isengoo wrote:Not so much a problem for real evil characters, who have Asador. But for semi-evil people like Asrals, with a temple in the Amwards, yeah, it is sort of irreconcilable and frustrating to think about.

But, oh well, I've resigned to it. Not much else can be done.
Well, as much as I like everything that happens against crusaders or taniels (:D) I must admit the situation asrals are living right now is _exclusively_ their own rp result.

Can a single crusader beat a single asral pvp? Surely not, if we forget about the occasional crit with a two-handed lance in mood frenzy, but I'd say a crusader 1vs1 is not stronger than an asral.

But crusaders made alliances, icly, specially with taniels. Sure, you might say, crusaders and taniels were nearly "coded" to be allies, but still they have always had differences in their thoughts and still, icly, managed to find common ground.

So ok, now we have 2 guilds against 1, and what's even more, 2 guilds that consist on fighters and healers, perfect combo. Result? Asral templed burned down and most asrals leaving Forostar.

But I never saw any line among the Asral "doctrine" that say asrals are so strong that they can't join another guild to fight. They decided to do it alone? That's fine for me as an rp reason, the pride of the fighter I'd say, and that could give asrals a very strong background, deciding to die alone in a fair fight rather than winning a fight in which they needed the help of others.

But then whinning on ooc forums because asrals have no place to go does not seem like the right option. Asrals decided to be alone, but ey, that was an ic choice, and deciding to keep beeing alone is again the ic choice they are taking, so...

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#18 Post by Vargrahim » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:25 pm

I personally feel that the Crusade is exactly where it should be. I do not understand the criticism, really. Why should the Crusaders not punish people who murder NPC's (I have the feeling that most people are not aware of how many good NPC's die to so called "good" characters) , backstabs, protects, or even spits in their face and insults them? Would you spit in the spanish inquisition's face? I do not think so. And even without that, the Crusade has good incentive to attack.

Just to clear out some facts. The Crusade has so far not targeted any guild as a whole. I can even share this piece of IC information in case you do not trust me, it begun with a list of four people which has grown to quite a few more after people chose a side. The only ones who made it "big" were those who took side against. And no, it does not only include rangers.

As for the "we will quit" argument, I am not really sure what I am supposed to do with that. It just sounds like a bad attitude in general.

Despite of this criticism, I have honestly been surprised about the many positive reactions to the general direction of the Crusaders. Yes, there are details to the left and right, but on the whole it seems we are in line with the general opinion. And I feel that the Crusade makes an improvement to the MUD as well by filling its role.
"The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil." - Albert Einstein

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#19 Post by isengoo » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:34 pm

You know what would be great? If the riding lance was really a riding lance, and only worked on the unicorn. :twisted:

Also, much can be said about the Spanish Inquisition, but uh, there's not enough room here :P

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#20 Post by Vargrahim » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:38 pm

Devi wrote: -Custom character items are destroyed. I've definitely seen this drive people away. As appealing as it seems to burn belongings, it entails not just financial consequences for the character, but sometimes months of ooc waiting time.
I just want to comment on that too. I think amongst many players there is a silent gentleman's agreement not to loot or destroy custom items. It is something I will not do, but there are always exceptions. With this said, I would not condemn anyone who does it - it is within the rules. I just hope that those who does it will think it is OK if they happen to be the victim.
"The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil." - Albert Einstein

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