Disguise

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Desiderea
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Disguise

#1 Post by Desiderea » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:50 am

Do disguise/masks hide a character's description?

isengoo
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Re: Disguise

#2 Post by isengoo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:52 am

Yes.

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Re: Disguise

#3 Post by lanyara » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:08 am

I think this is bad.

That automatically means that all who are disguised can never set up a description. Hence you OOCly know that EVERYONE who has an in-game description can NEVER be a disguised character due to the code restriction.

There are a few better ways I think:

- Allow descriptions for everyone to use without approval (I guess this is unwanted, but I want to suggest it still)

or perhaps even better

- Allow default descriptions for those who disguise themselves to use.

This way the thief chars can still be disguised. This description can still be somewhat limited, and has to approved, but you could then do something like:

'disguise as Joe'

And you would makeup to be Joe the farmer with a specific description.
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Re: Disguise

#4 Post by Olrane » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:21 am

lanyara wrote:I think this is bad.

That automatically means that all who are disguised can never set up a description. Hence you OOCly know that EVERYONE who has an in-game description can NEVER be a disguised character due to the code restriction.

There are a few better ways I think:

- Allow descriptions for everyone to use without approval (I guess this is unwanted, but I want to suggest it still)

or perhaps even better

- Allow default descriptions for those who disguise themselves to use.

This way the thief chars can still be disguised. This description can still be somewhat limited, and has to approved, but you could then do something like:

'disguise as Joe'

And you would makeup to be Joe the farmer with a specific description.
What more is this than OOC abuse, which should be self-regulated? Although really, your worry that someone's regular face will never be mistaken as a disguise is frankly laughable. If you really wanted people to think that you were in disguise with your standard description, you could act shifty, wear shady custom items, not have a long description, etc. It's a very strange thing to have a problem with. To have suspicion of any disguises would be the hallmark of a seriously paranoid character - and such a character should probably also worry that NPCs are disguised.

It's such an uncommon ability that it should always be assumed that any character you ever meet is not in disguise unless something in their description or a blatantly revealing action tips you off that they're not who they pretend to be.

The only relevant thing to note about disguise and OOC abuse is that people refuse to be confused ICly by disguises. I can't say how many times I've heard ICly that any certain player character in disguise (although the presence of disguise is not proven, only speculated probably due to OOC knowledge) is very likely a certain known thief, simply based on race/gender.

Yes, you're going to be right. Yes, this gives your characters a strategic advantage. Except wait - did you see the makeup smeared? If you didn't, you have exactly zero reason to suspect it...you don't go into the halfling Embassy and say every male halfling whom you don't know could be a certain known thief. Well, of course you wouldn't, because it would have to be a PC, right? We have to be very careful about this.

If people can maintain this suspension of disbelief, the game is better for everyone. Otherwise, players will only use disguise as a tool to avoid reputation changes, and they won't use it to come out in the open to roleplay with other PCs. The latter is the most fun application, but it's hard to feel safe enough from OOC cheating to do so.

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Re: Disguise

#5 Post by luminier » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:17 pm

I am in the wrong for having done this in the past, and I barely roleplayed it (as being super paranoid). It's more fun to be less diligent. It's more fun to be less scrutinizing. When you try to win the MUD for yourself, it really doesn't give anyone else much fun.

When people learn something IC, and it's something important, on Luminier I am usually (now) the first to doubt them, ask them to give me loads of proof and circumstances as to why this would be true. Because I know there is a person on the other end of this. That person may want to keep their identity secret, so I kinda "help" them by acting dumb. I like roleplaying with baddies. I don't like just killing them all the time, i've said it before, it's bloody boring. (also why i suggested shackles, I like not killing I like whipping, cutting, smacking)

I like having to tell baddies to be good and then turning around and severing limbs. It's kinda funny cause it's so counter productive lol. In real life it would work, but in Geas it's like "oh what an ass he cut my limb off" now im going to be EXTRA bad.

Anyways getting off track. Back to disguises.

Disguises should be roleplayed as "Oh hey! who are you?" not "HOLY SHIT, THAT HALFLING IS STRONG AND HAS SCARS, IT'S GEN - BURN HIM."

Also kinda of the reason why the thief guild is semi in the shadows right now. No one roleplays that the thieves are trying to trick you with their disguises, they just are too busy trying to win the MUD, and well thats makes the game boring for everyone but the person who wins.

Take this out of context and it would make no sense, but, be ignorant, it's more fun for everyone.
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Re: Disguise

#6 Post by Zehren » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:42 pm

luminier wrote:...Be ignorant...
luminier wrote:...I...
luminier wrote:...just try...
luminier wrote:...to win the MUD.
luminier wrote:...it's more fun for everyone.
:mrgreen:
Just joking, of course.

Perhaps disguises could be more versatile? (In addition to putting IC, not OOC, knowledge to use.)
Cosmetics to hide scars, fake beards, wigs. Contact lenses for eye colour (too advanced technologically?) Perhaps it could be possible to heighten size (stilts?), fatten up (pillows, blankets?). Change race, gender? (pointy ears, beard and fat, cover oneself in lizard scales... Fake tails. Wigs, special clothing with appropriate figures for gender disguisal?) We're dealing with professionals here. :mrgreen:

Of course, I don't know how much can already be done with disguises. *shrug*
The key is, of course, to use IC and not OOC information. :)
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Re: Disguise

#7 Post by krelji » Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:50 pm

Zehren wrote:Of course, I don't know how much can already be done with disguises. *shrug*
Disguise is versatile enough.
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Re: Disguise

#8 Post by Desiderea » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:18 am

Zehren wrote:Change race, gender? (pointy ears, beard and fat, cover oneself in lizard scales... Fake tails. Wigs, special clothing with appropriate figures for gender disguisal?) We're dealing with professionals here. :mrgreen:
Lol. Cross-dressers! That could be interesting... ;)

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Re: Disguise

#9 Post by ganandorf » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:07 am

I can see it now. 9 foot tshaharks disguised as 3 foot halflings.
Meow

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Re: Disguise

#10 Post by lanyara » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:18 am

Disguises should be roleplayed as "Oh hey! who are you?" not "HOLY SHIT, THAT HALFLING IS STRONG AND HAS SCARS, IT'S GEN - BURN HIM."
The code makes it very easy to get a good hint at who can be who after some time. Disguise as example with no long description, comparing stats to see who is stronger or more agile, appraising to see who may be a challenge and who may not (and if he is not a challenge then you OOCly automatically know this can't be that deadly halfling) and so on and so forth.

Then there is also the karma issue - if my deity tells me that someone has an evil aura then to me this means I could rightfully and instantly engage if I am a good character. Of course I am exaggerating since it depends on the players and whether they *want* to do this or not.

But with the current mechanisms it is really very easy to be suspicious and bite into it until something is "revealed". Paranoia is code supported. :>
Also kinda of the reason why the thief guild is semi in the shadows right now. No one roleplays that the thieves are trying to trick you with their disguises, they just are too busy trying to win the MUD, and well thats makes the game boring for everyone but the person who wins.
I am not sure that this is the only reason. :P
OOCly I think thieves should be "neutral" as a guild. Traditionally they started as evil. Then came a few more conflicts and code changes and I think it's not really possible to be a "good" thief anymore?

And if all thieves are evil anyway, then the good guys have won here by driving those sneaky thief bastards away from civilized places. ;)

As for trying to roleplay a sneaky thief, well. There was at least one sneaky satho cleric but everyone will be suspicious, and if you can do an aura check miracle, and that "new person" simply runs out of the room, then you can be almost instantly sure who it is ... and this kind of spoils a lot. Same with another non-cleric character. Once you know someone worships an evil deity, they can't conceal it in any way. I also do not understand why elves tolerate any worshippers of Lilith or Sathonys by the way. They have a long tradition of permanent conflict, then there are darkelves ... to me this seems more like something OOC, i.e. playability reasons perhaps. It for sure doesn't make sense In Character - but feel free to disagree if you want. I just don't understand it. (And I am not saying this is good to have or not, it just seems inconsistent)

It would be also silly to not do try to reveal who may be evil ... would crusaders or other good characters *want* to have evil spies nearby? It doesn't make too much sense to act stupid, even if that may be fun. Early paranoia here makes a lot more sense IMHO especially if that helps tone down on dead NPCs lateron.

@Olrane penned:
What more is this than OOC abuse, which should be self-regulated
It was only one example. There are many more ways. My favourite one is the aura checking - if someone has an evil aura it means he must be evil, because he did evil things.

But as for disguises, there was the example of Minariel and Luminier (i think checking for disguises). What if you refuse to be checked? That will be suspicious. Same with running away from favour checks ... it's a really powerful miracle, evil characters often run away from it ;)

We could give more examples, for instance - a disguised person could try to "hide" among NPCs. But NPCs are invisible and hence easy to ignore. Or it is hard to notice them. Now, if someone is disguised ... why would good characters act suspiciously? Do they check all NPCs as well? Crusaders do perhaps actually. It's also their job I guess. :)

Perhaps guards at gates also check for disguises or not, no idea. It just doesn't really seem to work, people may act "stupid", or not, but as far as I have seen it's so easy to reveal the "evil" folks that they can't really hide. Whether that's good or bad, who knows. But I think my statement is correct.

What I am trying to say is that there are many ways to find out who is evil or disguised, and who is not. I don't think "self-regulation" will effectively work, IMO it is better to have as much as is possible supported by code. And the long description example seems like a somewhat trivial way to help those who can disguise themselves. It's only something small ... with aura checks you'd be instantly revealed anyway ... or someone checking for disguises.

But I can think of another example. Let's say another playercharacter roleplays in such a way that he manages to confuse your character somehow. And eventually he could lead you to an ambush where your character might die. And OOCly you could suspect this, but ICly your character would not really have any clue. It would be like a perfect trap.
Now, I guess this is a situation where you (as a victim) wouldn't enjoy this situation much, perhaps you would be looted and so on and so forth. Would players still roleplay the role of a character who does not suspect this? Hmm.
It seems easier to remain paranoid. Who wants to roleplay being lead into an ambush even if it could be fun? :D
I can see it now. 9 foot tshaharks disguised as 3 foot halflings.
There are already halflings with splitted tongues and a tail, in a way. Soon enough you can see three halflings standing on top of each other. That's pretty close to a tshahark if you ask me! Sure that thing lacks some strength and one might hear giggling from the middle halfling ... or the whole thing collapses down due to bickering. Just saying that it might be possible for three halflings to disguise as one tshahark. Now, we only have to find a very small tshahark who has the tail removed, and possibly made a little bit shorter as well somehow hmmmm.... could be almost a halfling!
Best race: halflings.

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Re: Disguise

#11 Post by arxthas » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:30 pm

I agree entirely with you Olrane. I have had had thief characters "ruined" by this (some of it even went over the OOC channel, but anyway, that's old).

The problem is that people normally consider what the code can do as the answer to what actually can happen in game. I remember some events where people did not believe a lie that a character told just because the scenario is not possible in geas code, although entirely possible IRL. And I think this is very similiar. If your mindset is to play perfect decisions, it is always possible to find an excuse for doing so and it gets especially obvious when the what the code provides the truth..

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Re: Disguise

#12 Post by adanath » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:38 pm

Well yes, but when on a crusade against thieves, and you find lots running around many times wearing guild armours which you recognize (after capturing known thieves), using thief daggers (because they aren't thinking), having terrible reputations and sneaking around and rumoured to backstab. Being seen in Narveed near claydell a lot, well it just doesn't take a whole lot to put it together. If a thief plays well, then that would involve not only being invisible a lot of times, but knowingly manipulating karma so as not to arouse suspicion, knowingly manipulating repuatation, and hiding all thief specific items.

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Re: Disguise

#13 Post by luminier » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:43 pm

Lanyara, thats all well and good. But Luminier doesn't go around appraising every halfling (NPC/PC/invisible) do see if they are strong enough to be Gen. Clerics don't go around checking every halfling to see if they have a bad karma or not.

Really this should be "impossible" to do and roleplayed as such. Unless the halfling in disguise does something that makes him -look suspicious-. If hes just acting like the average halfling, why should Luminier care how strong he is, and why should a cleric feel the need to check him? The only real reason would be an OOC one, and shouldn't be used.

Im not saying you can't roleplay being paranoid, but I don't agree with your statement that paranoia is code supported. But if you are going to roleplay being paranoid, roleplay it all the time. People aren't just on and off paranoid. So Lanyara, if a Gen in disguise starts flirting, try to flirt right along! :D

Now obviously if they are doing stupid things like Adanath said, knock em around.
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Re: Disguise

#14 Post by Olrane » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:45 pm

I'll get back to winning the MUD, Adanath.

Guild armours? Fine. We'll never walk around with protection.
Thief daggers? Fine. We'll get a separate set of customs made for when we're "on the job" and in street clothes.
Both of these would be a lot easier if any of these suspect items could be stashed in a locker somewhere, but they can't.

Manipulating karma, though? Now that I have a serious problem with. To manipulate karma is to act outside of your character's roleplay so that his overall judgment by the gods is one of neutral to good...if that isn't your character, then you're cheating the karma system.

No one wants to be invisible. The problem is that thieves are fine if they are invisible all of the time, but they can't have a street face and a disguise because the disguises are transparent and remove their ability to walk around entirely. This makes the characters wholly unfun to play, and players quit.

Edit: I'm not talking about Olrane, FYI. He was pretty open about his intentions. I'm talking about all rogue characters past, present, and future, who need to have a way to stay concealed because a single mistake/unmasking ruins the entire character. And usually that unmasking has to do with OOC abuse or simply a failure to suspend disbelief because it's a strategic disadvantage.

Edit2 @Adanath: Suspicious activity, etc. which has "unmasked" a character as a thief, should still never be applicable to further disguises of that character. An unknown male halfling PC, male/female human PC, or otherwise, with high AGI and DEX, should not be assumed to be a thief even if you have suspicions of a certain known PC. Further, if the disguise still is revealing (you see guild armours, for instance), you still have no reason to associate that particular PC with an unmasked PC. For all your character knows, it could be any other guild thief. You must not inform your knowledge of disguised persons based on active players.

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Re: Disguise

#15 Post by adanath » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:55 pm

No, manipulating karma and deceiving the Gods is devious and evil. Stealing then doing some things to make up for it could be considered balance or manipulating.

Thieves can do whatever they want, but there are plenty of ic ways to notice them, as I believe it was more than went over in the past.

If they don't want to be lumped in then become invisible. It is up to the character.

Many of the greatest villains manipulated their reputations by being good on one side, evil at another, good at another etc. the same thing with karma, bad roleplay? If your character is idealistically opposed to doing good acts in order to cover evil ones, sure. Bad roleplay? Only if it is done poorly.

Don't whine to me, I am not saying walk around without protection, but if you do walk around with guild protection and use KNOWN guild armours and weapons in front of other people, then don't be upset when it spreads that you are a known thief. Or even disguised as one.

It would be nice if some of them could be stashed in lockers.

I have no idea what you meant by "winning the mud", but you do whatever makes you happy, as long as you roleplay it I don't care.

An evil character can easily follow Lilith, and still manipulate enough to keep his karma decent in public. Chaos..what better chaos than to be the continual proverbial wolf in sheeps clothes. Much of it fits just fine. It would be nice if the karma system was a massive AI that could oversee and give you a more public and private karma as you become a manipulator for your god, but bad roleplay for any aligned character..I don't see it.

If you want to disguise and walk around then by all means do it and get rid of your guild items for a short period of time, play the risk of going undetected. No lockers, well I am sorry, I wish it weren't so..though you can leave your items somewhere in your guild lairs I am sure. Though I realize it isn't the wisest thing to leave expensive thief guild items in a guild of thieves.

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Re: Disguise

#16 Post by luminier » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:02 pm

I agree with Adanath in all respects but the armour.

I just don't want to reveal why for the thieves sake =(

But Adanath I think you know why they shouldn't be able to be identified as a thief armour/weapon.
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Re: Disguise

#17 Post by Olrane » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:03 pm

Well, I do have some problems with what you're saying, because the guild armours are actually supposed to ICly not appear as anything much out of the ordinary. Non-guild versions of most of the armour pieces can be had elsewhere, so anything short of thorough inspection of the armours (which can only happen by having the armours in your possession), should show the armours as typical leathers.

They are supposed to be reasonably able to be worn at all times. It's abuse that people see them as guild armours when they're fashioned to look like nothing more than high quality leathers. Not a single part of the gear truly stands out as something that wouldn't normally be worn.

Edit: Lumi, you beat me to it!

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Re: Disguise

#18 Post by adanath » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:14 pm

It has been a while since I have looked at this subject, but they do appear normal except for color (which though it is a normal color), it is always the exact same color. It is always the exact same set almost. Yes I know what is revealed in the armour, I found it many times, which is nice for the thieves, but the combination of suspicion is what has to be avoided, and unfortunately if you are really active in a thieving role more than just a walk around and be a someone else role, it is hard to avoid.

Still yet, somehow even in the past 99.9999999 percent of the time the people with the real non-thief armours werent attacked..why? Because they weren't acting like thieves in all other aspects. The ones who were attacked did have thief armours upon inspection why?

because they continually had horrible reputation everywhere
they had bad karma
they snuck around all the time in conjunction with those two things
they were seen selling things at thief shops
they had armours befitting a thief
they had been seen using the same daggers (many times)

I mean..yes it is hard and it sucks, but that is part of the roleplay of a thief. A thief's life isn't all cherry and only a few become masters at disguising themselves within crowds and never being suspected.

Its not one thing that makes thieves visible under disguises, it is many many things. From coincidence and happenstance to being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Re: Disguise

#19 Post by Olrane » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:32 pm

I guess I'm not getting through to you.

What I'm trying to say is that the right thing to do is to turn a blind eye to what you know to be true OOCly.

For example...you have suspicions of a character. You beat him up...find out he's wearing leathers.

Do you a) Thus say it's confirmed that he belongs to a secret organization based on his equipment or b) make no special note of it?

I'd say b, every time. Leather is leather. Now, if he's got lockpicks and all kinds of other thieves' tools, that's a different story. Between the "stolen items" tag and the armour "confirmation", there's no room for plausible deniability.

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Re: Disguise

#20 Post by isengoo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:45 pm

Yeah, just because you know the exact description of a thief's armour doesn't mean it should be suspicious, since it would basically look like any other leather armour, unless you really looked at it super closely.

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