Election Day is Here...

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Presidential Election '08

Senator McCain
4
24%
Senator Obama
10
59%
Bush for 1 more term(3rd times the charm)
3
18%
 
Total votes: 17

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tessa
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Re: Election Day is Here...

#21 Post by tessa » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:25 am

Well, to even the odds, where I live is a pretty strong McCain/Palin area. Almost fanatically so. Like Crusaders. Except they aren't violent, just very verbally aggressive.

I'm uncertain of Missouri now. McCain has had a slight lead the whole time, but with Obama declared the 44th President, our ballot counters may fix the polls so Obama wins so they can continue claiming we're the bellwether state.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#22 Post by isengoo » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:39 am

gojin wrote:Ive been trapped in an office with 5 democrats who have been giggling a giddy babble for the past hour. 1 is crying and all are lauding Obama as the greatest person of this generation. The potential for this presidency to become a cult of personality is scary to me. Well, if in the coming weeks peace is declared in the Middle East, the Dome of the Rock is moved, the Holy Temple is rebuilt and half your friends dissappear into thin air....
Sorry dude, nobody cares about shitty Iraq anymore. As soon as we pull out they can all go back to genociding the hell out of each other for all I care. I got my own problems to deal with, and our involvement in that country is costing way too much for me to give a crap.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#23 Post by Naga » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:50 am

Save the Assyro-Chaldean people of Iraq!

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#24 Post by gojin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:55 am

isengoo wrote:Sorry dude, nobody cares about shitty Iraq anymore. As soon as we pull out they can all go back to genociding the hell out of each other for all I care. I got my own problems to deal with, and our involvement in that country is costing way too much for me to give a crap.
Im sure you have your reasons and if you've lost someone in the conflict you have my condolences(ive lost a few myself). Still, noone has really shown me any corrolation between our ongoing involvement there and the troubles in the economy. Sure Iraq has stretched the deficit a bit but...

- Iraq did not cause the Democratic congress to deregulate home loans, causing banks to shell them out to people who could not afford them like they were crack rocks. Cost of action in Iraq $100b per year.... Cost of buyout $700b and climbing.
- I doubt that taxing U.S. corporations to where its difficult to compete is a good way to stimulate the economy. It is a surefire way to stunt job growth though. Add 'strengthening the unions' to that and what you have is U.S. corps looking for their workforce oversees. Bye bye job.
- While taxing the rich sounds good, one should remember that this is supposed to be a capitalist nation built on competition. Over-taxing
those who succeed inorder to compensate those who do not will erode the motivation to compete.

No competition = no innovation = loss of superpower status = far greater wars = eventual end of USA.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#25 Post by Olrane » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:20 am

The really disappointing thing for me is that I hold traditionally conservative views on financial issues as you do Gojin, but that is not all the Republican party of today stands for. Warhawks, irrational bigots, and Christian fundamentalists who want to legislate morality have eroded all of the Republican party's eligibility for me.

One day the Right will win without having to be the "patriot" party, the "Christian" party, or the "pro-American" party. I can't wait for the day when God is not needed to bless America.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#26 Post by tessa » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:58 am

gojin wrote:- Iraq did not cause the Democratic congress to deregulate home loans, causing banks to shell them out to people who could not afford them like they were crack rocks. Cost of action in Iraq $100b per year.... Cost of buyout $700b and climbing.
Do you mind naming your sources for this? Because Democrats require Republicans reaching across the table to pass bills. Even more of them if they need to override a Presidential veto. Which means two things: either they had Republican Presidential support, or Republican Senate support. So blaming it all on the Democrats isn't quite right.
- I doubt that taxing U.S. corporations to where its difficult to compete is a good way to stimulate the economy. It is a surefire way to stunt job growth though. Add 'strengthening the unions' to that and what you have is U.S. corps looking for their workforce oversees. Bye bye job.
Between deregulation and CEOs cutting profits off the top and such, I think they have enough going around that taxing US corporations wouldn't deprive them of any safety cushion. Unless, of course, some people are willing to put their businesses under to continue carving out their piece of pie. That's not the fault of money deficit. That's the fault of poor monetary management.
- While taxing the rich sounds good, one should remember that this is supposed to be a capitalist nation built on competition. Over-taxing
those who succeed inorder to compensate those who do not will erode the motivation to compete.
On the other hand, we have the policy of 'the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer'. Frankly, I think it's quite fine for money to be shuffled to those that need it, than those that have more than enough of it. And no, despite what the RNC preaches, your hard-earned money isn't being stolen to be given to the lazy and uneducated. But it does and can help the middle (note: middle, not lower) class that is out of money because of the failing economy. I think the economy strives more when the middle class is able to keep jobs, buy homes, and purchase American-brand consumer goods. But not when you continue giving the money to those that spend it on cruises, trips, foreign-brand cars and so forth. Come on, who do you think needs the money more: John McCain, or his buddy Joe the Plumber?

As for the war, I think the best thing that can be done is bowing out gracefully. Republicans continue rambling about winning it, but what is winning it at this point? Each time we seem to complete one objective, another is tacked on the list. If I recall, McCain said he'd spend 10 years there if he had to, but what is accomplished when there is no significant headway? Besides making places like New Orleans or Galveston suffer because we continue pouring our already stretched-thin money into repairing foreign countries instead of our own.

But I guess another 4000 lives and $850 billion dollars would be totally worth avoiding the whole fiasco of the pro-war preachers having to admit they're wrong.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#27 Post by isengoo » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:14 am

Thanks Tessa for stealing my response, geez.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#28 Post by isengoo » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:23 am

Also, I find it interesting that even more socialistic countries in Europe manage to get along just fine with their demonically high taxes and free services, and the people there seem to be mostly happy and mostly employed. Gee, how do they do that? Oh yeah, not everything needs to necessarily be like the last 8 years in America. Higher taxes doesn't necessarily mean global economic collapse, withdrawing from Iraq doesn't necessarily mean anything, really, etc.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#29 Post by Naga » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:53 am

You like socialism, you schmuck? Look at Belarus. It's a real socialist paradise over there, Comrade Isengoo.

As for "Old Europe," it isn't as homogeneous as you would imagine. Sarkozy of France and Merkel of Germany both, though not without opposition, favor neoliberal economic policies.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#30 Post by gojin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:05 am

tessa wrote:Do you mind naming your sources for this? Because Democrats require Republicans reaching across the table to pass bills. Even more of them if they need to override a Presidential veto. Which means two things: either they had Republican Presidential support, or Republican Senate support. So blaming it all on the Democrats isn't quite right.
The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act was passed in 1999 and effectively reversed the Glass-Steagall act(which dealt with bank regulation). Gramm-Leach-Bliley was originally introduced by Republicans but was stalemated by house Democrats until they added language which added some privacy protection and "robust competition and equal and non-discriminatory access to financial services and economic opportunities in their communities"(equal access to 'economic opportunities' even if you can't repay the loan). Incase you are wondering the vote to add this ammendment to the bill was 241-132. Republicans voted 58 yay/131 nay. Dems voted 182 yay/1 nay.

During the Bush administration the GOP tried on 2 seperate occasions to repeal the act but were shot down thanks to notable efforts by Senator Christopher Dodd(D-Connecticut) and Congressman Barney Frank(D-Mass). This despite Alan Greenspan advising G-L-B be repealed as well.
tessa wrote:But not when you continue giving the money to those that spend it on cruises, trips, foreign-brand cars and so forth. Come on, who do you think needs the money more: John McCain, or his buddy Joe the Plumber?
You know when people spend money on cruises, trips and even foreign-brand cars... it helps the economy. And as far as who needs the money more between John McCain and Joe the Plumber? Its a moot point, under Obama they both get the hell taxed out of them.
tessa wrote:As for the war, I think the best thing that can be done is bowing out gracefully. Republicans continue rambling about winning it, but what is winning it at this point? Each time we seem to complete one objective, another is tacked on the list. If I recall, McCain said he'd spend 10 years there if he had to, but what is accomplished when there is no significant headway? Besides making places like New Orleans or Galveston suffer because we continue pouring our already stretched-thin money into repairing foreign countries instead of our own.
I wont defend why we went into Iraq but remember when you say 'the war' you are referring to the War on Terror... I personally believe 'bowing out' is not an option. It may not be as easy as you thought it would have been, one objective after the next like you mentioned, but wars are never easy. Much is made of McCain stating he would have us there 50 or 100 years if needed but people forget that we have been in Japan and Germany since '45 and Korea since '50. The U.S. is developing a bad habit of cutting loose when things get tough but I guess its a direct corrolation to the newer generations' way of thinking full of self-depracation and a distinct lack of self-accountability. It undoubtebly weakens us as a country and will continue to do so.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#31 Post by Grindel » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:13 am

Naga wrote:Sarkozy of France and Merkel of Germany both, though not without opposition, favor neoliberal economic policies.
And people hate it. It now comes down to being offered a better choice to vote for. If this does not happen (as I fear) -- welcome to the one and most important problem of democracy.
Homer Simpson wrote:When will people learn? Democracy doesn't work!

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#32 Post by gojin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:17 am

isengoo wrote:Higher taxes doesn't necessarily mean global economic collapse, withdrawing from Iraq doesn't necessarily mean anything, really, etc.
Higher taxes doesnt mean anything except less money in MY pocket. Withdrawing from Iraq doesn't mean anything? Damn bro, I really hope I misunderstand your meaning.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#33 Post by Grindel » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:29 am

Higher taxes doesnt mean anything except less money in MY pocket.
If the government does not spend the taxes on expensive wars and to rescue banks you would not mind paying them that much. Taxes go to the state and think about who that is...
Obama or any other president/government will not eat the money personally for breakfast, so tax money benefits you, the citizens. And nobody thinks it is communism to build streets with tax money that benefit everyone.
You may want to extend this to health insurance or you may not want to, but I'd complain about wars and stupid bank managers that do eat my money for breakfast, before complaining about anything else.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#34 Post by tessa » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:36 am

gojin wrote:The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act was passed in 1999 and effectively reversed the Glass-Steagall act(which dealt with bank regulation). Gramm-Leach-Bliley was originally introduced by Republicans but was stalemated by house Democrats until they added language which added some privacy protection and "robust competition and equal and non-discriminatory access to financial services and economic opportunities in their communities"(equal access to 'economic opportunities' even if you can't repay the loan). Incase you are wondering the vote to add this ammendment to the bill was 241-132. Republicans voted 58 yay/131 nay. Dems voted 182 yay/1 nay.

During the Bush administration the GOP tried on 2 seperate occasions to repeal the act but were shot down thanks to notable efforts by Senator Christopher Dodd(D-Connecticut) and Congressman Barney Frank(D-Mass). This despite Alan Greenspan advising G-L-B be repealed as well.
Sure, I'll do my homework and look into this. I'm interested if a bill passed 9 years ago can single-handedly bring the economy to its knees.
You know when people spend money on cruises, trips and even foreign-brand cars... it helps the economy. And as far as who needs the money more between John McCain and Joe the Plumber? Its a moot point, under Obama they both get the hell taxed out of them.
It helps siphon money out of the country, and considering our some 10.5 trillion dollar hole, I don't think that's what we really need.

As for McCain and Joe the Plumber, it's not a moot point at all. Joe the Plumber isn't hurt by Obama, but the RNC wants you to think that so they have something to use to relate to the common person since they weren't successful at trying the same with McCain and Palin when monetary figures, houses, cars, expensive clothing, and so forth were put on the headlines of several media outlets.

Joseph Wurzelbacher makes roughly $40,000 a year. That's about $210,000 off the minimum to get taxed. Which means he saves more with Obama than McCain. As for the business situation, there's a few things in the way of that, such as Wurzelbacher only considering to get it (which means this situation might ever even come to be), his not even being applicable to buy it from what I recall, and the business barely meets the limit. Assuming the company made the projected $251k to $280k anyway, only $1k to $30k would get hit with the 3% tax. Leaving you with about $30 to $900 difference. Which I believe was actually more affordable than what McCain was planning to do with health care. And it was also the same rate Clinton had. Which, BTW, was when the economy was booming, whether you believe he was responsible for the 1945 and 2008 recessions or not.

Trying to argue John the US Senator and Joe the Unlicensed Plumber are on the same financial level is ridiculous. I doubt McCain has a $1,182 lien on one of his houses, either.
I wont defend why we went into Iraq but remember when you say 'the war' you are referring to the War on Terror...
I'm speaking specifically of Iraq, not Afghanistan, Pakistan, and etc. We invaded Iraq for the WMDs we never found, and to overthrow the evil 9-11 mastermind guy that had nothing to do with 9-11 in roughly one week with barely any resistance. So what are we still doing there, besides attempting to make Iraq into the 51st state? And please don't say 'to fite terrer' when we're losing our control in Afghanistan, which was actually the focal point to this War on Terror.

Not to mention, now we have Iran to deal with. Iraq and Iran used to keep each other in check, but now that we've gone and stomped Iraq into a bloody mess, Iran is free to grow without burden of its competitive rival.
It may not be as easy as you thought it would have been, one objective after the next like you mentioned, but wars are never easy.
You mean, it's not as easy as the Bush administration encouraged people it would be.
Much is made of McCain stating he would have us there 50 or 100 years if needed but people forget that we have been in Japan and Germany since '45 and Korea since '50.
I wasn't aware the situations in Japan, Germany, and Korea were as intense as they are in Iraq. And to give a rough idea of how hard these places are to regulate, Iraq positions 5th in the Failed State Index, while Japan, Germany, South Korea, and North Korea place 163rd, 155th, 153rd, and 15th respectively. US being 161st.
The U.S. is developing a bad habit of cutting loose when things get tough but I guess its a direct corrolation to the newer generations' way of thinking full of self-depracation and a distinct lack of self-accountability.
Or because we realize pouring more and more time and energy into ineffectively trying to save the rest of the world while letting our own country fall apart will eventually ruin us.
It undoubtebly weakens us as a country and will continue to do so.
Yes, because turning Iraq into an admirable country at the expense of putting ours into poverty will do nothing short than strengthen our position as a leading figure in the world.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#35 Post by gojin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:06 am

tessa wrote:Sure, I'll do my homework and look into this. I'm interested if a bill passed 9 years ago can single-handedly bring the economy to its knees.
Not saying the bill is the end all of our economic woes. You just asked me to show some proof the Dems were the ones who instigated the deregulations on the banks.
tessa wrote:Trying to argue John the US Senator and Joe the Unlicensed Plumber are on the same financial level is ridiculous. I doubt McCain has a $1,182 lien on one of his houses, either.

"Joe the plumber" was a hypothetical analogy based on Joe Wurzelbacher's plans for his future. And my point was exactly that the two were not on the same financial level yet were both taxed heavily.
tessa wrote:I'm speaking specifically of Iraq, not Afghanistan, Pakistan, and etc. We invaded Iraq for the WMDs we never found, and to overthrow the evil 9-11 mastermind guy that had nothing to do with 9-11 in roughly one week with barely any resistance. So what are we still doing there, besides attempting to make Iraq into the 51st state?
Again not defending the strategy to go into Iraq but it is not an individual conflict rather a seperate theatre of the War on Terror. IMO whether our intentions were noble or not does not matter. What is important is that Iraq can be a valuable foothold for the U.S. sphere of influence in the M.E. What some dont understand or underestimate is the fact that if the U.S. leaves while Iraq is still unstable it will not be long before it turns into an Islamic state the consequences of which are many.
tessa wrote:You mean, it's not as easy as the Bush administration encouraged people it would be.
Part of being a democratic nation is that you have to feed the sheep tales of ice cream and puppy dogs inorder for them to stop crying at the mention of war.
tessa wrote:I wasn't aware the situations in Japan, Germany, and Korea were as intense as they are in Iraq. And to give a rough idea of how hard these places are to regulate, Iraq positions 5th in the Failed State Index, while Japan, Germany, South Korea, and North Korea place 163rd, 155th, 153rd, and 15th respectively. US being 161st.
I assure you the situations in Japan, Germany and especially Korea were as intense as they are in Iraq and I am speaking of the 'occupations' the wars were far worse. Hopefully in 50yrs Iraq will rank a bit lower in the Failed State Index... but who knows.
tessa wrote:Yes, because turning Iraq into an admirable country at the expense of putting ours into poverty will do nothing short than strengthen our position as a leading figure in the world.
"Admirable country" is funny. IMO your view is too focused on the short term and understandibly so. By your reasoning however you could say that the U.S. was foolish to intervene in WWI and that turned out ok... for us at least.
Last edited by gojin on Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#36 Post by Grindel » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:07 am

gojin wrote:that we have been in Japan and Germany since '45
tessa wrote:I wasn't aware the situations in Japan, Germany, and Korea were as intense as they are in Iraq.
Indeed... We even got constant hot water in every house some years ago, gojin! :D

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#37 Post by gojin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:20 am

grindel wrote:Indeed... We even got constant hot water in every house some years ago, gojin!
You should thank your lucky stars for the U.S. occupation then :wink:

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#38 Post by tessa » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:34 am

gojin wrote:"Joe the plumber" was a hypothetical analogy based on Joe Wurzelbacher's plans for his future. And my point was exactly that the two were not on the same financial level yet were both taxed heavily.
A future that was not even definite, but only a possibility. And Wurzelbacher's potential business wouldn't be taxed heavily. If I felt like looking into McCain's health care plans again, I could probably find Wurzelbacher paying more out that end than this one.

But possibilities aside, one thing is definite, Wurzelbacher comes no where close to $250,000. Which means, when you take into consideration literal things instead of hypotheticals, he benefits with Obama with no tax.
Again not defending the strategy to go into Iraq but it is not an individual conflict rather a seperate theatre of the War on Terror. IMO whether our intentions were noble or not does not matter. What is important is that Iraq can be a valuable foothold for the U.S. sphere of influence in the M.E. What some dont understand or underestimate is the fact that if the U.S. leaves while Iraq is still unstable it will not be long before it turns into an Islamic state the consequences of which are many.
It's an individual matter. Iraq wasn't a concern until we decided to pick a fight with it. Iraq couldn't exert itself without risk of Iran taking advantage of it. Afghanistan would have been a much better, a much more welcome, and a much more accomplished foothold than this blackhole we've put ourselves into now.

The latter part of the statement is more "boogie man" talk, and the logic leaves us with not much option but to attempt to take down the whole of the Middle-East, which we don't have the man-power or resources to do. So instead, we continue to poison ourselves by keeping Iraq in a permanently neutered state with threats to do the same to any other country that doesn't behave. And I'm still not sure where our endless supply of soldiers and funds are to accomplish what we apparently want to do here.

And yes, we've never ever had friendly relations with those satan-worshipping Muslims. We should convert them to Christianity.
Part of being a democratic nation is that you have to feed the sheep tales of ice cream and puppy dogs inorder for them to stop crying at the mention of war.
Or rather, Republicans use tactics such as blatant lying or scaring people into believing the imaginary boogie man will get them to get what they want. There wouldn't have been any crying about the mention of war (which we were in already and largely supported) had we not gone into Iraq for BS reasons.
I assure you the situations in Japan, Germany and especially Korea were as intense as they are in Iraq and I am speaking of the 'occupations' the wars were far worse. Hopefully in 50yrs Iraq will rank a bit lower in the Failed State Index... but who knows.
Key word there: were. They didn't continue that state for the past 50~ years with no real plan. We're still pouring people and money into Iraq with no visible relief or clear methods of obtaining the end result.
"Admirable country" is funny. IMO your view is too focused on the short term and understandibly so. By your reasoning however you could say that the U.S. was foolish to intervene in WWI and that turned out ok... for us at least.
In WWI, we went in, did what we had to do, and left. With Iraq, we're still running about like headless chickens, and it seems Bush was quite fine with leaving it that way and letting the next President clean the mess.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#39 Post by Herst » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:58 am

gojin wrote:Ive been trapped in an office with 5 democrats who have been giggling a giddy babble for the past hour. 1 is crying and all are lauding Obama as the greatest person of this generation. The potential for this presidency to become a cult of personality is scary to me. Well, if in the coming weeks peace is declared in the Middle East, the Dome of the Rock is moved, the Holy Temple is rebuilt and half your friends dissappear into thin air....

Wahahahahaha

First, he has to do something to gain the trust of everyone, like solve this economics crisis.......

Yeah it all fits, but haha, no.

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Re: Election Day is Here...

#40 Post by gojin » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:31 am

tessa wrote:A future that was not even definite, but only a possibility.
Hence the words 'hypothetical' and 'analogy' :roll:
tessa wrote:Afghanistan would have been a much better, a much more welcome, and a much more accomplished foothold than this blackhole we've put ourselves into now.
Well, Afghanistan has no resources of note other than opium, a GNP smaller than Haiti's, no sense of nation(its an entirely tribal culture) oh and they're not even Arab, so Middle Eastern(Arab) nations pay them no mind. Sorry, but Afghanistan is no political prize.
tessa wrote:The latter part of the statement is more "boogie man" talk
Im sure there isnt much I could tell you that would cause you to rethink your stance so let me just say that my opinion(and it was just that) is not born from ignorance nor some talking head on TV. Its a well supported hypothesis.
tessa wrote:And yes, we've never ever had friendly relations with those satan-worshipping Muslims. We should convert them to Christianity.
Not sure where you're coming from with this. If its regarding my statement about Iraq becoming an Islamic state; I think its fairly obvious that such a nation would work against U.S. interests.
gojin wrote:Part of being a democratic nation is that you have to feed the sheep tales of ice cream and puppy dogs inorder for them to stop crying at the mention of war.
tessa wrote:Or rather, Republicans use tactics such as blatant lying or scaring people into believing the imaginary boogie man will get them to get what they want.
tOmato tomAto
tessa wrote:Key word there: were. They didn't continue that state for the past 50~ years with no real plan.
Thank you for making my point. Key word: were. The conditions in said nations were bad, 50yrs of U.S. presence later they are better. Last I heard we have not been in Iraq for 50yrs. Its 5 and 1/2 now. Oh, and there is a plan. It may not be working as fast as you'd like it to but it is working. Compare Iraq now to 1, 2, 3 years ago and you will see positive momentum.
tessa wrote: In WWI, we went in, did what we had to do, and left. With Iraq, we're still running about like headless chickens, and it seems Bush was quite fine with leaving it that way and letting the next President clean the mess.
My reference was that we entered WWI with as little if not less need. Bush would have probably accepted the third term if you had allowed it to him so you cant blame him there. As for the headless chickens remark... I personally apologize that we could not supply you with the 'microwave easy' war you were apparently expecting.

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