Magic, fairies, ghosts - the supernatural

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Do you think the supernatural exists?

Yes for "invisible powers", no for others.
1
5%
Yes for powers and creatures, nay for magic.
1
5%
Yes for powers, creatures and magic!
4
20%
Yes for creatures and powers, no powers.
1
5%
Yes for magic, no for others.
0
No votes
No for all.
13
65%
 
Total votes: 20

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genesis
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Magic, fairies, ghosts - the supernatural

#1 Post by genesis » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:45 am

I'd like to ask all the players of Geas a question: do you think that the "invisible forces" exist? Such as angels, ghosts? How about "fantasy creatures", such as elves, fairies, gnomes? And do you think some form of magic is possible?

Or do you consider all the above mentioned only a part of the past, when the light of science had not shown to all men that there's no such thing as supernatural?

So, this is a poll. After answering, please state why you think so.

Please note: if your religion states existence of God, this poll is not about that, unless your deity is an invisible power that is not omnipotent. If your god is above the level of invisible powers, this poll doesn't apply to your god. I.e. this is not a religion poll, but a personal belief -poll.
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chara
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#2 Post by chara » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:04 pm

I think magic is basically defined by being non-existent. After all, we have telepathy (also known as telephones), telekenesis (I can move the mouse on my home computer from 4,000 miles away), fireballs (also known as shoulder-mounted missiles), fire finger (aka Zippo lighters), etc., but no one considers that magic.

At least no one today. Ask people a couple of hundred years ago, and they might disagree.

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Naga
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#3 Post by Naga » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:46 pm

It is very much a religious question. Angels have historically had quite a presence in the Christian faith; one only need to read the Gospels to read of Gabriel's role in the Annunciation. Prayers to the angels are advised by Ambrose and in our own day the late John Paul II urged Christians to renew their devotion to Michael the Archangel.

I don't want to even get into Satan or demons, a much more emotionally charged matter. Modern thought tends to treat them as personifications of internal things, the evil ego within or outdated notions rooted in a primitive understanding of mental illness. That idea, though, is quite a departure from tradition. Even Martin Luther, according to legend, threw an ink-pot at the devil!

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Chani
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#4 Post by Chani » Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:18 pm

I'd like to quote Arthur C. Clarke:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

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genesis
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#5 Post by genesis » Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:32 pm

Personally, I do think that all of the abovementioned exist, but I'm not saying they exist in the form that we know. Magic, what is it? Scientifically it is defined as a rite where one through some sort of likeness tries to change the physical world somewhere else. In literature, it is the art of fireballs and teleportation. In certain cultural contextes magic is considered "contacting the spirits", or even Satan.

It is, indeed, the (Christian) tradition that invisible powers do exist, as states Nicaea ("the creator of all, seen and unseen"). It would seem even that Christian tradition suggests that some sort of magic is possible. The sacred texts speak of people burning their spellbooks or something like that (Acts, if you want to have a look), and the Catholic Church (and other churches) are infamous for the witch-hunting and burrning.

Was it just men's quest to destroy all women who were able to think for their selves?

What troubles me as a Christian (!), is that the modern psychology has entered Bible interpretation. Even in many "fundamentalist" commmunity the demonic powers in the book are interpreted simply as psychological sutff ("Well, he had Autism, that's why he kept falling to the fire.", "Well, there's disn'ndat disease that can explain all...") Bah, I say.

The world is not all that a man can see. This is why I believe that magic, magical creatures and invisible powers exist. It doesn't make me a fearful peasant, like many "scientists" would want to claim. I don't sacrifice to the dark spirits I know exist.

On the other hand, you can just as well say that I've watched a bit too much Buffy and Supernatural. Perhaps I have.
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chara
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#6 Post by chara » Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:56 pm

So are you basically saying that everything that man has imagined must exist somewhere, somehow, whether there is any rational reason to believe in it or not?

I do believe that humans know far from everything, but I don't take that as a license to believe _everything_, either.

I also believe that science and magic are terms for the same thing - and that magic simply used to cover what we don't understand yet. Why else has there never been a single magical discovery, despite all of our advances? Pitting science against magic just doesn't make any kind of sense.

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#7 Post by Devi » Sun Feb 11, 2007 12:20 pm

I definitely agree with Chara about magic and science.

In fact, a lot of the "supernatural" phenoms (cosmology, divination, telepathy, monsters) have (psuedo-)scientific explanations.

I don't think you can really believe in the supernatural. To do so, you'd have to admit that there's neither proof nor explanation nor feasibility, and then it'd be rather silly to believe in it.

Most of those people who believe in the traditionally "supernatural" things find them entirely natural and convincing. They don't think they're supernatural at all. I've met ghost hunters and alien abductees who create elaborate, impressive, seemingly feasible explanations. There's a mountain of lore about vampires, the loch ness monster, and yetis. The truly faithful rarely dismiss it and say "It's magic!"

On the other hand, I think it's important to believe there's a lot more to the world than we know. The seemingly magic things (bread turns into maggots!) yield scientific discovery. Some astronomers are fueled by religion, and some archeologists want to find Atlantis. It's a good thing.

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#8 Post by Sairina » Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:40 pm

I wonder what would classify as "supernatural" under your definition at all... Let's take Geas, a magician might be perfectly capable to explain in "scientific" words what he's doing and what effect it has on the structure of the world, and it would still be magic.

And what's proof? Imagine you see a ghost. Is that prove they exist? Does it make ghosts *natural*? Is it supernatural just because you don't have an explanation for what you saw? Or might it be supernatural even if you *can* explain it?

Be that as it may, I personally don't believe in anything, so I voted no. Not very interesting, Im afraid.

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#9 Post by Dantari » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:56 am

I'll just think of magic as a loose term referring to a complex method (which we don't really understand yet) that achieves a certain phenomenum.

As for other beings or sentient forms, I believe they exits since I've witnessed something in my room b4...without the being causing it though.

Then there's that interesting question by Sairina: "And what's proof? Imagine you see a ghost. Is that prove they exist? Does it make ghosts *natural*? Is it supernatural just because you don't have an explanation for what you saw? Or might it be supernatural even if you *can* explain it?"

In a similar manner, I'll just say I see "ghost" as another loose term again to convenient classify stuffs that we don't really understand yet.

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#10 Post by nogem » Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:33 pm

From the comfort of my living room and I can make an image of my house appear - so large in size it covers a wall - as seen from miles above yet so close you can see each plant in the yard. I can then will this image to a device my friend has attached to their belt. When they view it, they can hear my voice - and respond that I can hear theirs.

And when person breaks into my house - I find out immediately and from miles away can see inside my house, point at the intruder, and shoot them in the ass before they steal all that I own... all in a matter of seconds, and all without having been in my house for months if I choose.

Application really is the magic of science.

When my mother was dying she had muttered a half sentence and wasn't able to finish it. Hours later she passed. As I drove home I turned on my radio - it hit a station I don't even listen to and there was a song she loved. The chorus began with what she had been able to say and the message fit the conversation we had been having. Everybody else can read this and think 'what a load of shit'. I lived this and can't really turn my back on it.

Uncovering the unknown, after all, really is the point of science.
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Delia
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#11 Post by Delia » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:56 am

I thought about this quite a while but got severely stuck on semantics and voted 'no'.
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#12 Post by Vargrahim » Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:20 am

Speaking of definitions on magic.. since explaining what magic is takes the magic out of it, magic should be defined as "the unexplainable".
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