Good bye

[kaspars]

Playing a game should be fun, sadly due to different reasons it is not for me anymore. With satho guild locked so no new members can be accepted and 1-2 active players in total while no visible limitations in opposite guilds, satho guild is not playable anymore, in my opinion.

Thanks to:
1) instant one sided development of the `good side` like watchtowers (sturdy, shooting in complete darkness, armed with tough guy inside the tower) that are rebuilt without any problem in few hours after their destruction (you should be quite lucky to get enough time to destroy them, though) or elves from Elvandar forest and their abilities to instakill
2) funny `improves` of the satho hunting grounds when inhabitants of the unicorn forest are forming impressive teams now to aid each other.
3) players of the `good side`, who never were able to play something more then `me crusader, me bash evils` or simply switch to stunmode
.. I`m simply giving up.

For wizards - thank you for creating very good MUD that kept me busy for few years. Just one remark - think, why there are no other `evil` players in this mud anymore and those who dare, give up very soon .. except infamous and skilled evil character of tessa, of course.
For some players of `good side`, I wish you to learn that this game is a bit more then textual version of `counter strike`.
For wannabie satho chars - get ready for tough task.

Thank you!

[Drake]

I didn't change the unicorn/faun valley, but to ensure everyone knows why it happened, here are the actual details of why the changes were made there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report #1756

Submitted on Wed Mar 7 10:15:55 2007 by Kaspars Status: resolved
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

DESC: My praises for the wizard, who made unicorns and fauns move
: around, chasing undeads and us, sathonites. Actually I believe it
: is excellent idea - forces of the nature trying to get rid of
: creatures like us It was excellent surprise, when they started
: to chase me, I must admit

There is more information available with: 'report 1756 all'

COMMENT: Thu Mar 8 01:39:14 2007 by Genesis (hidden)
: Righto. It was a one-time incident, but that could be a
: nice addition. *is responsible for incident*

COMMENT: Tue Mar 13 21:42:19 2007 by Genesis (hidden)
: Report moved from Giat to Idea.

COMMENT: Sun Nov 4 05:04:17 2007 by Drake
: Status changed from new to queued. This report has been
: placed in a que for review and implementation as time
: permits.

COMMENT: Tue Jun 10 02:50:11 2008 by Yoda
: Status changed from queued to resolved. Chase you now
: they will.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
[END]

[luminier]

*sigh* it's never fun when people use the "I quit" arguement....

honestly i don't know what i could do except join the evil side to keep them active.

[tessa]

Just one remark - think, why there are no other `evil` players in this mud anymore and those who dare, give up very soon .. except infamous and skilled evil character of tessa, of course.

Since you want to make the last bit snip at me, let me bite back:

The reason I quit playing my evil character wasn't because it was too hard. It was because of the pisspoor treatment that was given to me by the Satho players. Not just ICly, but OOCly too. The attitudes I put up with essentially killed my mood to play the mud anymore.

And here, let me even elaborate on your great attitudes as players to spare you calling my bluff:

You calling me a no good cheater for things that you never bothered to even get my side of the story of, which BTW, were perfectly legit actions which I spoke to the admin and playerarch about (and totally ironic that you accuse me of being a cheater, when it was I that reported quite a few bugs and glitches the Sathos were abusing, such as the glitch to steal horses from the corral for free, then sell them in Asador for 60 gc apiece).

Having more than a few sathos players admitting to me that the reason my character was treated especially poorly was because it was known I had alt. characters, and Sathos have openly confessed more than a few times that they don't want those types of people in their guild. And this didn't happen to just me- I'm sure you remember another fellow who came along later that suddenly got the door slammed in his face upon hearing he was a second to a certain player.

Finding out from a few satho players that all the grief towards my character was motivated by a particular player that had an outside-the-game hatred towards me.

Being laughed at and ridiculed by a few Satho players and pretty much being told I'm a shitty player, crappy roleplayer, and no-good cheater.

The totally nonsensical logic that my darkelf is apparently a spy for Tanielites, having undergone the ritual with the aid of Crusaders, because I lost computer access for a month and was unable to log on. Amongst other weak-based arguments like there being elf tracks around Elvandar, my ability to avoid crusaders when none are online, having suspicious items on my person that were given to me by the very people interrogating me, running into crusaders while walking along their patrol paths, etc, etc. Interestingly enough, though I wasn't the only Satho guilty of some of these "concrete crimes", I was the only one persecuted for any of them. Hmmmm.

While the Sathos may feel it was ingenious and perfectly logical roleplay, pretty much everyone else I showed it to saw the same thing I did- my character being set up and framed with unintelligible IC allegations that were motivated by the OOC determination to not allow me into the Sathos because my char was a second.

So, before you sit here pointing fingers at other people and asking why the Sathos have no players, maybe you should take your own attitudes into consideration and ask yourself why anyone would want to have anything to do with people like you, and who would care to endure such crap in a game meant to be fun.

[adanath]

I wasn't going to comment on this, but I will.

First of all I want to start off saying that we should have stunned Kaspars in the last fight, and I am sorry that we didn't. We have been making an effort to stun more people, and it has failed for one reason or another incompetence to accidents (and no I am not trying to slight anyone, some of the incompetence was on my part). I was about to switch to stunning kaspars, but as the advantage of being a tshahark, it kicked in very shortly after we actually got him trapped, within a few seconds I got a crit and it was over.

The time prior that we killed kaspars we actually took phelan alive, and recovered the shard and that was around a month ago.

Kaspars especially has been making a habit the past week of murdering as many Crusader guards as possible at the towers. While we kill Satho and Lilith creatures, Kaspars is the first member of the sathonys clergy we have killed in quite a while (please, I do not say this to excuse not stunning I should have been in stunmode to begin with).

I and other crusaders are going to and have been (though poorly to this point) to make a more concerted effort to do less killing and more stunning with alternative punishments, but for God's sakes if you don't want the possiblity of being killed then don't attack places the Crusaders protect.

I received a couple snide remarks from Kaspars after his death, and as far as I know the last time the Sathos were very active they killed mathias, tehanu and many others times without giving them a second for anything else. Yet when it happens one way everyone is happy, and the other noone is. In this case I am not happy, and I do hope to see improvement.

The Sathonys priests have many things at their disposal, it has been very few and far between that I have seem them utilize all these things. Make it difficult, Aragog succeeds in annoying the Crusade a lot, because she is exceptional at getting away.

Frankly, I don't really know what else to say. I am not trying to ruin anyone's roleplay, or fun. Nor do I ever intend to. I will do my best to enhance it more so in the future than it has been in the past, but I am not going to complain if I die a few times, and I would expect other people making decisions that they well know will lead to an imminent threat or death from one of my characters, to realize this and be prepared to accept it with a good attitude and attempt to get revenge ic if neccessary of course, through whatever means they can accomplish.

I am sorry if Kaspars feels that we have in some way destroyed something, but for someone whom has only been involved in 2 altercations in months, I would expect for them to try to extract more revenge, or realize that next time may in fact be different, and if I can help it, it will.

I have been rambling a while now, and frankly have nothing left to say.

[Devi]

On a slightly related note:

I've heard a lot of comments about the Crusader watchtowers shooting in the dark. This seems like a bug. Has it been reported? Is it intentional? If so - why?

[hsparks]

GEAS should probably grow into more than just PvP objectives like they have recently. A lot less issues between players and more involvement in the world. Pretty much why I don't play anymore. I mean, think about it.

When's the last time you read the descriptions of an entire dungeon because you were enjoying being there instead of frantically trying to grind skills and exp so you can fight with the top people in pvp?

[aragog]

I've heard a lot of comments about the Crusader watchtowers shooting in the dark. This seems like a bug. Has it been reported? Is it intentional? If so - why?

A lot has been reported. Anyhows.

I just read the note and I am just sad. Sad that I tried to keep players playing the last months, sad that it didn't help at all.

Tessa: One thing - you caused the fate of your char yourself - don't blame it on Kaspars, on Alamar, on me or anyone else. You had more chances than anyone else - we talked ingame, we talked OOC, we told you whats the problem, we agreed on solutions, we gave you the chance to get out of the mess you created yourself - you didn't want to take it.
If you want to continue here now, put it to the playerarch and make an accusation.

It's never and it will never be easy to join Asador, but its not impossible if you stay patient and take into account that we have to check the applicants very thoroughly. Exceptions have been made when a char was already known a long while by one of us.

Adanath - sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

So far for my 2cc.

[hsparks]

It's never and it will never be easy to join Asador, but its not impossible if you stay patient and take into account that we have to check the applicants very thoroughly.

My baddie got in easy as pie after he was brutally cut to pieces by rangers each limb at a time, tongue, shaved, both ears cut off and left on the sathonite rock to die.

[Devi]

When's the last time you read the descriptions of an entire dungeon because you were enjoying being there instead of frantically trying to grind skills and exp so you can fight with the top people in pvp?

Yesterday.

[eirikeld]

Alright. I likely shouldn't but I'm weighing in on this as well....
I have to more or less agree with Hsparks, from the other point of view. I am not a power player, I never will be.
So, when it became far too much of a headache, and far too little fun, I simply have walked out of my lives as well mostly. I stepped down as judge, I got tired of dealing with the headaches it caused. I now log in, do things, and log out. Doing things, is not the same as interacting, and having a really good time.
Yes, I have had a few parties, true. And they were fun, but those can not be every day.
Sadly, my options are to involve myself and not have fun, or to live the life of a recluse which greatly lessens the game. I am not leaving quite as abruptly as Kaspars, but I can easily see it being a matter of time.
This mud, code wise, and story wise, has a lot of potential. I honestly hope the player base and the wizards can figure themselves, and their problems out. I will not point fingers, and name names. If anyone wants to ask my take on the mud, then they can do so here, by email or IM [see eirikeld's or kerlorin's wiki page, one should have it].
I have tried to contribute, and may continue to do so, if I can find a way to do it without getting sucked into the headaches again. In the mean time, I'm not quitting the game completely, but I will likely be harder to find.

[adanath]

I have carefully studied many dungeons.

[tessa]

Tessa: One thing - you caused the fate of your char yourself - don't blame it on Kaspars, on Alamar, on me or anyone else.

Right, yet none of you could ever explain how I brought it on myself- not even to the Playerarch.

You had more chances than anyone else - we talked ingame, we talked OOC, we told you whats the problem, we agreed on solutions, we gave you the chance to get out of the mess

Bullcrap. You never told me the problem. Read above. I was never given a chance, either. Don't make me go fishing the logs, and don't make me have to drag out the Playerarch to repeat the same thing.

I remember my chance. I had to pay a penance to be let back on the bottom of the totem pole, because I had not logged on for a month. I worked very hard to get it done, and I was told my sin was 'fixed'. A day or two later, Kaspars admitted to a birdie IC (who told my char later), that he never actually meant it and my char was to be eternally damned without ever having a second chance.

But I guess that wasn't supposed to get back to me. Oops.

you created yourself

Right, I forgot quietly training myself in the nymph/faun forest as advised by the Dreadmaster was a sinful and suspicious act.

- you didn't want to take it.

Right, that's why I spent weeks trudging through the cesspool situation trying to save my char and find ways to placate you people even after she was essentially made an enemy of Sathos and Asador because I didn't play for a month. Okay.

If you want to continue here now, put it to the playerarch and make an accusation.

Hey, I just told Kaspars why you guys don't have fresh meat. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just retelling my own personal experience and what other players told me.

It's never and it will never be easy to join Asador, but its not impossible if you stay patient and take into account that we have to check the applicants very thoroughly.

All my char had to do was ask, and bam, she was in. So was Sparks' char. So were a few other chars I know about that I'll leave in anonymousity.

Adanath - sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

Right, that's the standard satho clique answer- We know everything better than others, and if you disagree with us, sorry- you're stupid and wrong. But don't expect us to explain why or how. It's just a given and you should learn to accept that we're always right no matter what.


Anyway, now that I'm on the ball, let me go ahead and get to Kaspars' points of how goodies are obviously at a much better advantage than evils:

1) instant one sided development of the `good side` like watchtowers (sturdy, shooting in complete darkness, armed with tough guy inside the tower) that are rebuilt without any problem in few hours after their destruction (you should be quite lucky to get enough time to destroy them, though)

Yes, watchtowers being able to shoot in the darkness is so overpowered. Because if they couldn't, Sathos could just cast darkness over each one and cut it down with no more difficulty as a tree, and that's totally fair and balanced.

But, let's compare Satho skulls (which also detect people) to crusader towers:

1. Satho skulls are invisible.

Watchtowers stand out like a sore thumb.

2. Satho skulls take little more than a tiny bit of faith, a few seconds of casting, and a skull, and Sathos don't even have to prepare the skull in the room they want to put it in- they can just prepare it elsewhere and drop it while dashing through the chosen room.

Crusaders have to take time cutting down a tree, then moving this significantly-larger-than-a-skull item to the chosen place for the watchtower, along with other miscellaneous items, and construct the tower in a speed significantly slower than it takes to cast a skull miracle. Also, the Crusaders are immobile while they build it.

3. Crusaders have "tough guys" in the towers. Okay. They only get one per tower. Remind me; how many undeads can you create, from how many different types of creatures? And how much gold do you have to pay to hire them?

4. Watchtowers are sturdy, sure. But it takes just as long to destroy them as it takes to make them- just the same as it takes as long to kill a skull, as it takes to create one. Seems fair to me.

or elves from Elvandar forest and their abilities to instakill

Yes, it's such a shame that you can no longer loiter outside the city walls of the capital of good, especially after having complained so loudly about the unfairness of it when goodies had done the exact same thing to Asador.

As for the elves doing instakills... well, welcome to the world of vampires, banshees, and bastardsword-wielding giant skeletons when trying to close the tower of pain. Which, BTW, in itself also risks a chance for instadeath.

2) funny `improves` of the satho hunting grounds when inhabitants of the unicorn forest are forming impressive teams now to aid each other.

Drake already clarified this situation well enough.

3) players of the `good side`, who never were able to play something more then `me crusader, me bash evils` or simply switch to stunmode

Gee, and this is totally different from the Sathos that seem to attack no one else but Crusaders, Taniel Clerics, and Elvandar Archers, right? Oh, and newbies 1/8th your size that are trying to hunt thildens (whose valley you fill with high-level undeads which invariably slaughter any ignorant newbie that doesn't realize they're not newbie monsters, or any newbie older than 2-3 playdays or something), let's not forget about them.

For some players of `good side`, I wish you to learn that this game is a bit more then textual version of `counter strike`.

While I agree the goodies need to 'simmer down', I think there's something wrong about the advice coming from someone who constantly cries that his piece of pie isn't as big as everyone else's.

And I wished you learned that there's more to being evil than "me zssaso, me zssmazssh tanielzss".

For wannabie satho chars - get ready for tough task.

No, the tough task is crumbling now. Hopefully the Sathos will be able to soon accept characters based on IC reasonings and not whether or not the player is likable enough to be admitted into the OOC Satho clique.

[Devi]

Sorry to steal Kaspars' and Tessa's respective thunders...

This mud, code wise, and story wise, has a lot of potential. I honestly hope the player base and the wizards can figure themselves, and their problems out.

The playerarch is always around if things happen (see drama above and below!).

In the mean time, I'm not quitting the game completely, but I will likely be harder to find.

From personal experience, Geas can stay fresh forever if you don't overdo it. I suggest taking your time with your character, avoiding all ooc drama, and only playing a little here and there. For me, the Geas endgame involves contribution - almost exclusively. You become a director as opposed to an actor. Many older characters exist solely for their projects - whether they're skalds, alchemists, or scribes. It becomes about ooc and ic contributions as opposed to skills and guilds and wars, which inevitably lose their interest.

I just hope you stay around in some capacity for a very long time. Personally, I have enjoyed Eirikeld and Kerlorin a great deal. Although Devi has talked Eiri's ear off for hours on an end ("You are doing the Law a great disservice"), as a player, I have always thought he's a great character, and your contributions to the game, especially the Skalds, stand out in my mind.

[tessa]

I'll agree with Devi, Eirikeld. I've been impressed by your characters, and in my opinion, they stand out from the average crop. I've also been one to appreciate your work in the Skalds.

Perhaps a break isn't so bad, everyone needs a break now and then. Though Eirikeld has stood out as one of my more favourite characters in the game currently, and I don't think he'll be one that will just quietly fade away without people noticing.

[Drake]

I think that this is more than enough already.

No evidence could be found for OOC influence in the reasoning used to exclude Tessa's alt character from Asador/Sathonys Clerics.

Anything further should be limited to personal messages, though I would reccommend that not be done either.

[Drake]

The playerarch is always around if things happen (see drama above and below!).

Somewhat, you'll need to wait while I work on my RL business, it comes first.

[Grindel]

I will not comment on the given examples because I know neither the circumstances nor the regions a Sathos plays in.

Just this: Kaspars quitting does not come as a surprise, he had concerns quite few times. Each time the reactions were harsh, to put it mildly. He was told to cope with it or to leave it. He now did so, which is a pity.


Funnily it's often the folks who contribute for a lot to action and interaction in the game who get pissed off and are then told off by players, that are invisible in the game and play a loner when eventually logged in.

The Sathos are the fucking last reason for the crusaders to exist, and the crusaders are bored.
The three, now two, sathonite players meanwhile are what makes the game work best, if you want to do more than bring your char to mastership of some guild in peace.
These three, now two, players are not of the inexperienced kind, so to say, and perhaps their concerns should have been taken more serious.

[Devi]

Just this: Kaspars quitting does not come as a surprise, he had concerns quite few times. Each time the reactions were harsh, to put it mildly. He was told to cope with it or to leave it. He now did so, which is a pity.

If you're referring to the thread about npcs reporting, the reactions were mostly suggestions about how to solve the problem. There were also some suggestions that the evil side should wait and see if it actually is a problem before asking for it to be fixed. Mixed in with all of those, there were one or two harsh reactions.

Funnily it's often the folks who contribute for a lot to action and interaction in the game who get pissed and are then told off by players, that are invisible in the game and play a loner when eventually logged in.

It's not very fair to compare the contributions of characters or players. It's especially unfair to write off the contributions of Tessa just because your character doesn't interact with her. She contributes to the game in significant ways, despite being "invisible". I think everyone, even characters in "some guild of peace", make lasting and meaningful contributions to the game. Geas is a lot more than PvP between Sathos and Crusaders.

[aragog]

If you're referring to the thread about npcs reporting, the reactions were mostly suggestions about how to solve the problem.

It's not the only thing, but it was part of it, too. The last 6-8 months were very frustrating for all of us and now it got too much.

t's especially unfair to write off the contributions of Tessa just because your character doesn't interact with her.

Noone spoke about Tessa, please read the thread more carefully.

poAra