Good bye

[Devi]

Noone spoke about Tessa, please read the thread more carefully.

players, that are invisible in the game and play a loner when eventually logged in.

I presume that's Tessa, the invisible woman. In this very thread, she "told off" Kaspars, who seems to "contribute a lot of action and interaction". Grindel was not-so-subtley saying that it's those people who don't contribute ("invisible" "loners") that chase off those people who contribute. In his opinion, this is funny ("funnily"), maybe because he feels such characters don't have a right to.

I argue, in case you didn't read my post, that every character contributes, both Tessa and Kaspars included. I also argue that Tessa's invisibility is not representative of her level of contribution. If Grindel knew the extent of Tessa's contributions, he probably wouldn't find it so funny.

Noone spoke about Tessa, please read the thread more carefully.

It'd be absolutely insulting to everyone's intelligence, mine and yours included, to insist that Grindel wasn't speaking about Tessa. I read threads pretty carefully, and I'm always happy to explain them.

[Grindel]

Noone spoke about Tessa, please read the thread more carefully.

Well, I _was_ kind of speaking of her, so I apologize if it was out of place.

It just worries me, because the satho players did have numerous complaints in the last year, not just weeks, which were rejected right away.

It is easy to disprove some examples they give to make their point, but this does nothing to help the situation. I think that one might listen more when players like these state that they lack fun. This might indicate a real problem or unbalance that needs to be resolved, not argued away.

[aragog]

I presume that's Tessa, the invisible woman. In this very thread, she "told off" Kaspars, who seems to "contribute a lot of action and interaction".

The referred talk was about an alt of Tessa and not Tessa herself. If Grindel referred to someone else, sorry. And so far I couldn't see that Grindel tried to lower the contribution of any player in any way, but mostly pointed out that a lot of RP and action comes from Asador, or, to quote him, from 2-3 players.

Well, anyhow. I am tired as well.

po Aragog

[Grindel]

Damnit, don't focus on my stupid sentence, but on the non-stupid ones, please!!

It's not the only thing, but it was part of it, too. The last 6-8 months were very frustrating for all of us and now it got too much.

This is a problem, so let's not argue about stupid things and ignore it.

[Grindel]

With satho guild locked so no new members can be accepted

Why is this, whats going on with it?

[Blizt]

Well, the Sathonite players complaining "the mud is no fun for me" because other players/guilds get things similar to what they ALREADY have, or other guilds treat them the way they ALREADY treat others is a bit ........ silly.

I have had numerous encounters with them, and EVERY time they have tried to kill, never stun (barring one time when Kaspars was with Cemoch).
They never made an effort to stun, it was simply kill fast. Now that happened to them maybe a couple of times, and it is a problem for them.

There have also been incidents when a Sathonite has been captured and their only response was an OOC statement of : I refuse to roleplay.

The name of the mud is not Sathonys. Things are not going to go your way 100 percent of the time. Look at the whole picture, and you will realize that all the things you are complaining about you are also guilty of.

If things were going your way now, this thread may not have even been started.

[tessa]

Funnily it's often the folks who contribute for a lot to action and interaction in the game who get pissed off and are then told off by players, that are invisible in the game and play a loner when eventually logged in.

Well, as Devi said, I've done my own pieces of contributions. But I'm not interested in trying to list my possible merits.

So, I'll just say this:

Tessa isn't and never was a conflict-char. This is one of the reasons I was interested in making a Satho- to play not only a char in conflicts, but also a chance to see a part of the mud I haven't gotten to before.

Obviously, for whichever reasons you want to believe, my char. didn't make the cut. And it was not limited to just IC frustration, because I was told rather unflattering things OOC by some of the people involved in the situation, some of which were happy to make a mockery of me.

So yes, since then I have, for the most part, quit playing. The comments that were given to me more or less destroyed my image that the mud's community was full of kind and friendly players that all tried to work together to make the game enjoyable and fun for everyone involved, and that's a rather nasty knock to motivation to want to play anymore.

So, the reason I am "invisible" now is because the few times I do come around on the mud now isn't to play my characters, because I have a hard time enjoying it as a game anymore. What I do during the few times I do come around, ironically enough, is attempt to help wizards with things and contribute to the mud.

The contributions are mostly "behind the scenes" aid to wizards and not char-conflict contributions like you credit the Sathos to, but I've grown to accept the case that I'm just not meant to have any other character in the mud but a "background" one, as much as I would love to have otherwise.

EDIT - Addendum

The reason why I am "telling off" Kaspars is because when I was in the position of having my own fun destroyed and my own char. ruined, for vague and cryptic reasons no one could give me a clear answer to, the general response from Sathos was, "Don't like it? Tough shit. Don't blame us. Blame yourself or God."

Because of that, I find it a bit hard to offer anything but the same sympathy I was given myself. Besides the fact that I don't agree with thoughts like watchtowers being overpowered to spy skulls and risen undeads, as I mentioned in an earlier post.

[adanath]

Just as an addendum, there has not been one single time a Sathonite has tried to stun me.

[ganandorf]

Why is everyone wasting their time arguing?
He's not having fun playing the game let him quit, games are supposed to be fun, not having any, then go do something else, plain and simple there are millions and millions of games out there go play another one, easy as shit

[ganandorf]

also, Hi im back

[luminier]

Okay I can understand that dying and trying to recover from dying is a long process that no one likes to do. And the Sathos have few training grounds without being spotted. To be honest I don't know where the exisiting ones could train, well thats a lie if i were a sathos id do some things differently, but ive never had the pleasure so i can't judge.

regardless. when you go to war with someone, hurt innocence and murder guards with good karma, someones gonna give a shit. someones gonna want to burn you. and thats the crusade. now ill give you that dying sucks and it's difficult to recover. but you can't have exhausted every strat. and i know this for a fact because there are some good ones right now i can think of. being evil isn't easy. like any art. props to the sathos for holding out as long as they did.

however if u ask someone to do something for you, be kind and do the same for them. there is a reason wizards crack down on ooc chatter, this is a roleplay mud. figure it out in character. this "refusing to roleplay" bs just isn't good for anyone. so you die, you go lick your wounds you get them back next time. crusaders won't kill you over and over and over until your at max low stats. we've said this. we would do it.

ive been in your position with my character. and i didn't even have a place to run to. the crusaders i think, handled my situation well. and trust me. i was pissed at one point, but then i realized hey ill just roleplay and things worked out. sathos have a different situation. some choose not to roleplay because they are mad ooc. i think if you gave the crusaders a good show IC they might respect you more as a player. i would.

for future evils good luck. it isn't easy. but if you choose to go evil you do it because you like the freedom of roleplay not to bitch and complain. from what i hear this has switched back and forth between sides. i rememebr when at one point the crusaders were getting destroyed and we kept our damn mouths shut.

in short, get ur act together, and follow the rules or get the hell out. find a way to make it work. or don't. and don't let your ooc feelings influence ic feelings i did at one point and it wasn't good.

pardon the swearing throughout.

[jezz]

Point after point:

1) Kaspars, I'm sorry to hear you quit. I've had a very good time playing with you, planning "god knows how many" different strategies and trying to beat whatever the MUD threw at us.

2) Tessa, you know I have nothing against you, I've told you several times OOCly, and IC Jezz didn't have any grudge against you. Told this, I'd ask you to stop writing this kind of posts. They are long, boring and childish, and you should be able to realize that they could go into a infinite loop easily. You _always_ want to be the last one saying the last word, and personally, I think it just doesn't make sense.

3) Aragog, entering into those discussions with Tessa will do little help for you or the Sathos.

4) Crusaders: We mostly attack in killmode. Why? Because we know we can't instakill a crusader, 80% a tshahark with a plate helmet that covers head and neck. We also attack in kill because when you fall uncon we can quickly shackle and aid you. Or at least that was my reason: And from all the crusaders that have posted here anything, I can remember some situations in which Jezz shackled them and not killed straight away. The fact that crusaders had nearly always bigger groups than sathos helped too.

Even so, if Jezz killed a crusader/other guild player that was too weak for him, or didn't shackle when he could, I apologize for any inconvenience.

5) For everyone: Personally, I like watchtowers, I like snipers and I like the new informing system. I like everything that is hard to overcome, although I get pissed when I don't manage to ovecome it

But most of you know I'm mainly a powergamer, that's nothing new. I'm 75% powergamer, 25% explorator and 25% "interactor". The current situation makes it impossible to powergame, since all training zones (remember: SATHO training zones, not trolls) are controlled by towers, you can't explore anything because you're constantly hunted (I'm one of those that can't read room descs) and you also can't roleplay out of Asador because you get instantly hunted.

This leaves me with 15% powergaming (against players?), 0% exploration and 5% roleplaying (roleplaying between sathos).


This is not a complain, really. I'm aware that if I'd really want to solve my problems I should do something ICly and try to improve the MUD. I just wanted to let some of you know some of my thoughts.

My 2 euros

[adanath]

It would be nice to have shackles.

[tessa]

Ropes are a lesser (and unfortunately still buggy) counterpart to shackles.

If I remember, binding people forces combat to end like shackles do.

The only catch is that ropes weigh a bit and you need longer rope for bigger people (but default size for ropes should work for pcs).

[Delmon]

I personally am sorry that Kaspars has left. I've seen nothing but good rp from him. I'd even go on to say that active Sathos are the reason geas is not just good, but really good. A few things though.

I, for one, have been happily content to know that the sathos do, indeed, stun. I've been captured and not died... so have some of my friends. (and this incident was as one of their enemies)

Sure, there's definately things the sathos can do to fight back the crusaders and taniels, who now have pretty much complete control over who is miserable or not.

To me there seems to be two big reasons for their general downfall to what it is today:

1. lack of trainable areas. it's obvious, and to me i think that should change. I understand that's hard... But let's face it. It's no fun to give up that neutrality and try to be crazy evil or smart evil or whatever evil, because what youre going into is gonna ruin your character's strength, and long ooc hours. (took me 3 ooc months to regain my stats, and that was after I wasnt hunted anymore... we're talking 6-10 days)

2. lack of recruiting on the part of the sathos. I see around 7 decent, average warriors that could be easily swayed, yes easily swayed, to join the sathos cause. And even if only to attack crusaders... better to enlist cannon fodder that will gain strength and become like you than noone at all.
Edit: I noticed also that Jezz said its hard to rp with people while being hunted... yes, but you do have a city... and the crusaders and taniels are not ALL seeing. Id think it's possible to find some downtime (could send tells to possible cannon fodder and tell them to meet in the tundra or something)

Sure, there arent any aragogs or jezzs, but with as hard as it is to be an evil, sometimes i think its just a matter of persuasion, and then the evil rp will come, and the strength of the sathos will increase.

I feel bad kaspars is frustrated, but personally i understand why he'd feel that way. And as grindel noted, it's not surprising if you go through the forum.

[luminier]

out of any issue here i think recruitment is huge. even three active sathos on daily or weekly would dominate any resistance that I am sure of. i know this because jezz kaspars and aragog have proved it can be done that way.

[vurdijak]

Sorry to see you go. I had a good time with Drahitt/Elizoren and that was a great time in the mud for me. There was a lot of PvP, some went our way and sometimes not so much. In retrospect, that seems liks a heyday for the Sathos. I do not play those characters anymore, and sometimes I wonder if thats a mistake.

Over the years (several) I have heard it argued that the balance of the game rocks back and forth, between good and evil. I know that this is true, and my personal hope is that, when the new continent is finished, that the game balance will even out at least somewhat, so that goods and evils can find places to hunt that are remote, challenging, and safe (from Pvp). In my opinion, players of extremely good or evil characters are commendable for ALWAYS playing Geas with a significant risk of PvP death.

Let me clarify what I mean, so that no one thinks I am suggesting PvP free zones...a solution that I have seen in other muds and disliked.

The continent of Forostar, rich in detail, can be traversed via miracle, horseback, or on foot relatively quickly. A matter of seconds most likely. There are of course issues of fatigue (a nice implementation), however, even an armoured player can still move at a steady clip, on foot, not lose too much stamina, and get across the continent pretty fast (how many minutes for this? not sure). I do not think this should be changed, but I want to point out that goods and evils of necessity must live in a state of paranoia. I want the paranoia to remain (after all both sides will have access to the new continent via ship, i am pretty sure) but be lessened by the expansion of the world.

I can't speak for Kaspars's experience, but I think this would have changed my perspective on continuing to play my evil. I would have been able to explore new areas (mostly safely with the aid of skulls) and challenge myself as a roleplayer to pit my char., Elizoren, against new and non PvP related challenges. Also to explore with the same freedom would have made for a better experience. One of the best times I had as an evil was when Genesis customized the end of a lifequest for my character and it was carried out with the aid of the other evils.

More terrain will be entertaining and compelling, like the quest was, but will be a gift that keeps on giving. Unlike the quest, the terrain will likely offer new things to hunt, new cities to access, and perhaps even new people and chars. NPCs to meet.

This is something to look forward to as a player. I do not think there is a better solution to the underlying issues discussed in this thread than the new continent, already under way.

Anyway, thanks Kaspars for playing here, having an interesting character, and above all scaring me, actually scaring me personally, with your IC malevolence.

[chara]

A lack of space on the current continent is an acknowledged fact, as is the scarcity of easy evil training areas. This is also one of the reasons why it doesn't make sense to have an overly large Satho guild right now.

This is something that we wizards have been working to correct for far longer than the current complaints have existed, and the Sathos have been invited to aid in making happen more quickly (so far, with no result).

Unfortunately, wizard time is limited, and real life pokes its head in far too often. That is why we ask any of you with the desire to help out to become wizards, or to participate in the requests for help on the Wiki.

[Delmon]

From Kaspars:

With satho guild locked so no new members can be accepted

Wait... they cant accept new members?

eh.. when did this happen?

[jezz]

From Kaspars:

With satho guild locked so no new members can be accepted

Wait... they cant accept new members?

eh.. when did this happen?

To answer Delmon and Grindel, since noone else did so, I don't know when that happened exactly since no satho was informed of the code restriction until we tried to allow someone into the guild.

In the past there was a friendly rule among sathos and wizards that sathos themselves would control their numbers so the balance of the game would survive. We did so and that's one of the reasons sathos are somehow disliked oocly because people think we are snobbish.

Even so, I think this change came because the wizards thought it would be the best for the MUD to mantain the satho guild with only 3 members, so there's little to argue here about it.