the "new" sathos

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Herst
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Re: the "new" sathos

#41 Post by Herst » Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:44 am

Well, what exactly would a Zhakrin clergy have though?

I agree, without code support, it is a hard hard life on GEAS.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#42 Post by Naga » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:04 pm

Hmmm... A miracle that brings your health to half-way dead, either hurting or healing you depending on your current health.

A miracle that grants everyone in the vicinity +1 dark vision and affects ambient light -1, or grants everyone -1 dark vision, and increases ambient light by 1.

A dwarf creation miracle.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#43 Post by stilgar » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:16 pm

Drain mana, drain fatigue to render your opponents still :wink:
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Re: the "new" sathos

#44 Post by tessa » Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:40 pm

Grindel wrote:A Zhakrinite does nothing random, he has a plan, and acts when he sees the need to do so. He believes that his actions are for the greater good and the survival of the whole world.
Unfortunately, it seems most Zhakrinites that claim themselves to be experts of Zhakrin tend to do not what benefits the world, but rather what benefits them personally. Which makes them selfish, not selfless.
manipulation is nor sneaky nor bad at all
It can be considered dirty and underhanded if you trick side A into screwing over side B (for personal reasons) and take the blame for you, while you come out of it clean as a whistle. Which seems to be the general approach to 'Zhakrin sneakiness'.

And when Zhakrin is claimed to be an ally of Sathonys and enemy of Taniel (so said by one of these official 'Chosen'), and works in the shadows with deceit and manipulation, it seems to me like a heavy overlap of Lilith's role.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#45 Post by isengoo » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:42 am

Is selflessness an aspect of Zhakrin?

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Re: the "new" sathos

#46 Post by Grindel » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:16 am

I expect them to be as selfless/selfish as any other person. Following any god might earn you some beating; some care and try to avoid it, some do not.

Zhakrin by definition cannot be the ally of a single god, but a follower may think it nessessary to say so at times, if he wishes to fight and thinks one group to be too strong. Plus... one cannot judge the whole idea after the roleplay of two people, who just had fun in mind, not an airtight theological definiton. You could just as well close every guild and the whole mud, otherwise.


I really think that many of the zhakrin-related things here should be discussed IC, which, I admit, would make more sense with an existing clergy; or at least added to the geas theology-page on the wiki, to extend the paragraph on Zhakrin.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#47 Post by stilgar » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:26 am

The discuss about Zhakrin or the views in general about him I think can be the OOC part of this discussion, which could help those planning to RP in this theme in the future. The examples dragged from the behaviour of characters who tried it in the past in-game should really be discussed elsewhere. Mixing up the two things might lead to dangerous misunderstandings about the ideology or the deity or its role in the game.

Its like dragging an example from the inquisition to judge roman-chatolics or judge the islam from the behaviour of some fanatics :wink: These things can be connected obviously, but don't think this would lead to a proper picture about these ideals and their teachings :wink:

By the way.. we discussed Zhakrin and other deitites and the society itself.. what about Zhakrin and the nature? I'd be interested in your opinion on that.
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Re: the "new" sathos

#48 Post by tessa » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:39 am

On topic of Zhakrin and nature, I would presume he would be against the corruption or destruction of the natural order of things, such as Lilith's twisting creatures into demonic/goblinoid creatures, or Sathonys' unlife to some creatures.

However, maybe the 'Balance' belief is that one of every two people should be turned into an unnatural abomination.

Out of curiosity, has there been a Zhakrinite that interpreted balance as the inner balance of oneself (similar to Shaolin), rather than the moderation of the world?

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Re: the "new" sathos

#49 Post by sun » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:55 am

stilgar wrote:Its like dragging an example from the inquisition to judge roman-chatolics or judge the islam from the behaviour of some fanatics :wink: These things can be connected obviously, but don't think this would lead to a proper picture about these ideals and their teachings :wink:
I think the argument was that they were kind of representative.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#50 Post by tessa » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:06 am

Pretty much, yes. The reason I brought up the Chosen was because they were supposedly not just your typical follower, but rather the avatar/mouth/will/extension/etc. of Zhakrin itself.

However, considering the title seemed to be self-appointed rather than given by wizards, I guess it's kind of unfair to hold them against the true concept of Zhakrin.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#51 Post by Grindel » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:32 am

Out of curiosity, has there been a Zhakrinite that interpreted balance as the inner balance of oneself (similar to Shaolin), rather than the moderation of the world?
Sure, but if you do that, you quickly get stigmatized as an unwanted passive neutral, who does not contribute to the "real" action in game.

But indeed there is a lot to Zhakrin beyond active moderation. One point is a kind of tolerance regarding the different religions. A Zhakrinite will tolerate other religions, as these followers contribute to the struggle of balance in one way or the other. He might see different gods as pawns in the game of balance, just like the mortals. This is what brings a very different kind of thinking into play, which is very different from the very extreme and narrow views of the current two parties in geas.

In Zhakrin there is a place for roleplay like the one of the former chosen ones. Secondly, it can be a place for chars that do not want to play plain bad vs. good, and who in result don't have very much to do in geas right now, apart from being looked down on by the others. It is impossible that there is no middle way that contributes to the game and is entertaining at the same time. Thirdly, all this might create an struggle between the followers over the right interpretation and all this discussion in here could offer days worth of action in game.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#52 Post by tessa » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:18 am

Grindel wrote:Sure, but if you do that, you quickly get stigmatized as an unwanted passive neutral, who does not contribute to the "real" action in game.
Not necessarily. You can believe in inner balance and still partake in other things. As a Shaolin, Tessa believes in inner balance, yet she still actively does what she believes is right, and it's interactive, if not in the pking sense.
This is what brings a very different kind of thinking into play, which is very different from the very extreme and narrow views of the current two parties in geas.
I'm not sure if I entirely agree with that. Zhakrin could be just as extreme with code support and fanatical followers, and there are several interpretations of how to follow Sathonys or Taniel. Yes, the Clergies hold the monopoly of belief, but I assume a Clergy of Zhakrin would do much the same. And he, like the others, holds the view that he'd be correct and the others aren't.

There's also a third party to Geas (Asralites), who currently champion the neutral party. I find it a bit surprising that this party would be forgotten in your statement, though.
Secondly, it can be a place for chars that do not want to play plain bad vs. good, and who in result don't have very much to do in geas right now, apart from being looked down on by the others.
This would be a good thing, but you'd have to encourage these chars to want to participate in the Zhakrin side of things, since I think in the case of some of them, it's not that they don't want to participate in the conflict of good vs. evil, but that they don't want to participate in any conflict at all.
Thirdly, all this might create an struggle between the followers over the right interpretation and all this discussion in here could offer days worth of action in game.
I agree, and your requests to take it IC haven't been unheard, but I'm not sure if this would come without more Zhakrin followers. The problem of the unpopular faiths (particularly Gwen, Zhakrin, and Lilith) is that you only get about one or two followers here and there (die-hard followers coming even more rarely), which is never really enough to do much faith-establishing.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#53 Post by vurdijak » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:13 am

Maybe we should combine Gwen, Zhakrin, and Lilith into a single deity?
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Re: the "new" sathos

#54 Post by stilgar » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:25 am

Answering in any ways to the mentioned actions of "Zhakrin's chosen ones" would lead to a discussion of IC matters on an OOC board especially in an OOC topic, which I would personally like to avoid at all cost, so I simply won't react on that :wink:

About nature and Zhakrin. As deity of balance I think he'd accept elements within nature in all their aspects and encourage his followers to do so.. I mean like water can be either a source of life or a destructive force, or wind can be either refreshing or freezing, etc. This means both creative and destructive forces are accepted within nature.
In relation with nature.. I think Zhakrin tolerates partial or isolated destruction of nature either, as long as it leads to no complete destruction as well as nature's growth to a certain range. Finding the exact measures is the point I think.
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Re: the "new" sathos

#55 Post by Herst » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:47 pm

I mentioned Zhakrins chosen ones because of the same reason. They were apparently the ones selected by Zhakrin himself to represent him and his values and principles.

I was not aware until recently that the "Chosen Ones" were not selected by wizards and self imposed the title upon themselves. Honestly, I am almost positive I saw some type of "wizard interaction" with one of them at one point. Such as a voice coming out of nowhere, instructing them to do something, them doing what was instructed and them finding an item there. Then they stated that Zhakrin chose them to be his "Chosen One" So I was under the impression they had some type of wizard support. The details are fuzzy, because lots of things were happening at the time. It was hectic.

It was possible though that the person buried the item themselves and used a lot of power emoting and clever tricks though. That would mean they used some very dirty and nasty tricks though, to give themselves this title.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#56 Post by tessa » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:21 pm

stilgar wrote:In relation with nature.. I think Zhakrin tolerates partial or isolated destruction of nature either, as long as it leads to no complete destruction as well as nature's growth to a certain range. Finding the exact measures is the point I think.
But I'm curious, would he tolerate unnatural destruction of places? For instance, a forest fire is a natural disaster, and could be understandably tolerated in neutrality, but, let's say in theory (since I don't know the facts offhand), that Lilith is responsible for twisting and corrupting Isyanyr forest into the haunted gloom it is now, as well as turning former parts of it (or the plains, I forget which) into the barren wasteland roughly north of the current forest. From what I know, these areas are permanently wasted, and is unable to restore themselves back to their original state. Would Zhakrin tolerate that sort of destruction? Or how about Sathonys' influence in permanently cursing and damning Eal-Deliah (destruction of a town is one thing, but the permanent haunting of it?)?

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Re: the "new" sathos

#57 Post by stilgar » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:01 am

Permanent destruction? Unable? In a world inhabited by deities? :roll: I think in a world with active deities present, everything is possible nothing is permanent :wink:

Besides.. balance isn't limit itself to a certain area.. partial destruction could mean destroying nature on entire Forostar, but not elsewhere.. Try to move away from things and look at them from perspective.. as far as I know other continents exist either, so don't limit your thinking to only one of them.

So, to answer your question. Yes.. he would tolerate it for sure, as he would tolerate to make whole Forostar getting turned into a jungle or anything else.. what he has in mind when acting imo: earthly powers of deities and influence of their mortal factions :wink:
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Re: the "new" sathos

#58 Post by Chani » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:19 pm

OK. I'm a little late, and I'm already revealed IC.

I just wanted to say thank you for the thanks on the original topic.

P.S. Embrace the plague.

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Re: the "new" sathos

#59 Post by Delmon » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:20 am

I'm already revealed IC.
*snap* I thought there was someting odd about chani...

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Re: the "new" sathos

#60 Post by luminier » Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:47 pm

well if chanis revealed i guess this means lumi is too... dammit i tried so hard to keep it a secret.
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