Luminier/Alts

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Sairina
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Re: Luminier/Alts

#101 Post by Sairina » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:23 am

Well, for starters, the US is significantly larger than most European countries. So naturally its rates are going to be proportionally higher. Perhaps if you added enough European crime rates (preferably the ones closest to the 'normal') till you got roughly the same population, then averaged the total, the rates may be a bit closer.
Huh? :shock:
Actually, if you add more samples close to the average, the average doesn't change a bit.

@Staltos: You're seriously thinking that the average american citizens would stand a chance against a better-equipped and better-trained army?
I believe it was Thomas Jefferson that said a healthy nation was one that rebelled openly against its government every 20 years.
Besides, then it would be about time... :lol:

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#102 Post by Grindel » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:24 am

And I'm pretty sure we could go look at other countries that have similar games and such, and not see the same rate of violence (even if guns aren't allowed, knives and fists can be weapons, too).
I have a thought why that might be. In the US everyone seems to expect heavy violence, on both sides. As a result, citizens AND criminals arm themselves and get more trigger happy. And this results into even more worries and more guns.
Well, for starters, the US is significantly larger than most European countries. So naturally its rates are going to be proportionally higher.
The rate is proportional, so it does not matter how large the base is. Murder rates are given in cases per 100.000 citizen. (I found figures on 0.2 to 1.2 in Germany compared to 6 in the US; same with other european countries.)


I must say I never thought about an armed robber coming to my house. Our house was broken into one time, but the burglars came quiet and unnoticed while we were on vacation, they left the coffee-pot standing behind the door, as an alarm in case we came home.

From other incidents I know that european burglars are unarmed and work by stealth. They run if there's no money or someone sees them. Shoplifters who shoot around in the quick-e-mart are only known from the TV here.

That is why we do not feel the need to protect us against life threatening crimes, if we are honest: there are so few here. I did not think about weapons and murders for years until I read this thread.

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#103 Post by Grindel » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:29 am

A thought about "Would I shoot a robber or give him what he wants"

I would definitely hand over my money and let him run. I do not want to kill and do not want to be killed. If you are to fight an armed robber, one needs to be damned sure about it, technically and moraly.

I know this discussion from long distance sailors. To take arms on board or not to, and there is no consensus opinion there, too. But I think the same principles apply here. Take Sir Peter Blake,who was shot on his yacht because he started to shoot at the guys who wanted his watch. As an amateur with a gun under the bed, one always isin a disadvantage, even if one is willing to shoot someone over a watch. Or to get shot oneself, that is.

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#104 Post by Grindel » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:37 am

Behold! The transatlantic brass knuckles:

For punching in Germany, stabbing in the UK and shooting in the US!

Be equipped for every possible travel destination and please the locals by honouring their favourite method of violence! Be a polite tourist and respect local customs!

Image

Ships with 5 bullets and a set of band aids in your choice of colour!

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#105 Post by Staltos » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:02 am

I believe first of all, if there was a rebellion, the military would largely be split, especially when it came to the national guard, and reservists.Also, there are far more armed citizens in the US than military. When it comes to internal conflict, the deciding factor would be battles fought on foot, since the central government will not (in most cases) use weapons that could hinder its developement after the conflict. So that rules out any use of high tech aircraft, tanks, and artillery, the things that give the US military the most edge in war. Finally, open rebellion doesn't need to be open warfare. What about the large ammount of civil rights movements in the last century?
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Re: Luminier/Alts

#106 Post by Grindel » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:25 am

The first part ist completely improbable, and for the latter you do not need guns... ;-)

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tessa
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Re: Luminier/Alts

#107 Post by tessa » Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:43 am

Well, we can all probably agree that the US does have bad crime rates, and I wouldn't argue that point. However, I don't think guns are to blame for it.

I wouldn't say we all expect violence, per se. It's not like we're huddled in corners with loaded shotguns and a trigger-finger. But the thing is, there are criminals out here, a sad but true reality, and people prefer to be able to defend themselves should, heaven forbid, they ever be the victim heard about in the news.

One important thing to keep in mind though, is just because people have guns don't mean they *have* to use them. Nor does it mean they're going to whip the things out every time someone bumps into them on the road.

Think of it like planning to steal the wallet from a black-belt in karate. You'd probably think against it. Why? Because he's a black-belt in karate, he'd probably kick your booty before you got close to his wallet. So, you change your mind. Did he ever actually have to whip out his karate skills or do any butt kicking? Nah. And guns are kind of like that, too. I honestly can think of very few instances where someone had to actually *use* a concealed and carried gun in self-defence, because most criminals know better to mess with that. Except those psychotic dudes that go in malls with automatics and just start blasting everyone before killing themselves.. and in those cases, I doubt many would argue much about people being able to defend themselves against *that*.

But, I think people not used to guns are going to be startled by the concept, especially if they have the impression that there's people that shoot other people for looking at them funny on a daily basis or something. Probably the same way that reserved people in the US are going to say that nude beaches are amoral and awful places of lust and indulgence that should never exist, while places that have them will probably be like "wtf mate, it's not like it's an ocean-wide orgy out there all the time."

So, I'll just say this. Just because a gun can kill someone, doesn't mean blood must be spilled (you can kill people with pencils too, you know). Just because a gun can be a weapon, doesn't mean you have to use one that way (you know those yo-yos people play with as toys? They resemble weapons used by people of the Philippines some years ago). Just because some people use objects for evil purposes doesn't mean that everyone does (Think of the history of crimes with knives. Yet nearly every household will have one as an eating utensil).
A thought about "Would I shoot a robber or give him what he wants"

I would definitely hand over my money and let him run.
Yes. Of course you would. Anyone would. But like I already said, there's times when money is not the only thing, or even the thing at all, that the criminal wants. Maybe he wants sexual relief. Maybe he gets pleasure from hurting people. Maybe he wants to hurt you to make sure you won't chase after him or call for help afterwards. Maybe he doesn't even want anything from you, and simply wants to teach you a lesson for trespassing on gang turf. Would you still keep the "do what you want and run" philosophy in that case? No, I doubt it.

Keep in mind that simple money robberies aren't the only crimes that go on out here. And I'm sorry, I'd rather shoot someone that wanted to rape me or slit my throat or slam a knife into my stomach to make sure I don't scream for help than endure such an experience. And who said I had to kill him? Shooting someone in the leg or arm can often be enough to disable them. There's no need to go for the kill unless absolutely necessary (as in, my well-being will be harmed if I don't).

Perhaps there's people that are willing to take that risk for the sake of not hurting the perpetrator. And in that case, all I can say is: to each his own.
But I think the same principles apply here. Take Sir Peter Blake,who was shot on his yacht because he started to shoot at the guys who wanted his watch. As an amateur with a gun under the bed, one always isin a disadvantage, even if one is willing to shoot someone over a watch. Or to get shot oneself, that is.
No, the same principles don't apply, since you have to pass a test to carry a gun, which includes knowing how to hold, load, and clean the gun, how to use it responsibly, where you can or can't take it, and also you're required to pass an accuracy test in a firing range.

Also, looking into this:
On 6 December 2001, pirates shot and killed Blake while he was on an environmental exploration trip in South America, monitoring global warming and pollution for the United Nations. The two-month expedition was anchored off Macapá, Brazil, at the mouth of the Amazon delta, waiting to clear customs after a trip up the Amazon river. At around 9 pm a group of six to eight armed, masked robbers wearing balaclavas and crash helmets boarded the Seamaster. As one of the robbers held a gun to the head of a crewmember, Blake sprang from the cabin wielding a rifle used to ward off polar bears. He shot one of the assailants in the hand before the rifle malfunctioned; he was then fatally shot in the back by assailant Ricardo Colares Tavares. The boarders injured two other crew members with knives, and the remaining seven were unhurt.

The only booty the attackers seized from Seamaster was a 15 hp outboard motor and some watches from the crew.
Notable differences:

1. That was a hunting rifle of sorts, not a conceal and carry gun. He would have needed a hunting license or whatever, not a conceal and carry permit (have fun trying to hide a rifle on your person, anyway).

2. It's hard to say whether the gun specifically belonged to him in the first place (as it would with a conceal and carry permit), or if it was simply a general item taken on the trip and he happened to be the only one to be able to get to it.

3. According to the article, the fault wasn't that he was an amateur with the gun, but rather than the gun malfunctioned.

4. If the gun wasn't even his in the first place, and he really was unexperienced, then that's actually a point against your argument, seeing how people have to pass the conceal and carry test before being able to actually use one.

So, I say that comparing an environmental explorer using a gun for a critical emergency that it wasn't even designed for is a pretty strained comparsion of people who are tested and authorized to use a personal firearm for the specific purpose of self-defence.

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#108 Post by Staltos » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:32 am

Grindel wrote:The first part ist completely improbable, and for the latter you do not need guns... ;-)
explain. It's easy to say something is improbable, especially when you don't know the people or the attitude in a group. What latter part are you talking about?
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Re: Luminier/Alts

#109 Post by Grindel » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:44 am

The improbable part is about the american citizins need to fight their own army. The latter part is about the civil rights movement, which does not require guns, or at least, it most definitely should not.

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#110 Post by Zengo » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:38 am

Grindel wrote:The improbable part is about the american citizins need to fight their own army.
From my understanding this is EXACTLY why we have this right.
It may not be as necessary today as 200 years ago, but at the time it was written it was very necessary.

Grindel, do you know about the American Revolutionary War?
If so, you may understand why it is not so improbable.

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#111 Post by Delmon » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:46 am

you can kill people with pencils too, you know
Joker!

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#112 Post by Grindel » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:40 pm

Grindel, do you know about the American Revolutionary War?
If so, you may understand why it is not so improbable.
I give up, you won. I don't want to see you conquered by the british empire or, god forbid, the US-army.

Now back to Lego. :D

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#113 Post by Zengo » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:43 pm

If the US Army wanted to conquer me, I am not sure I would stand a chance against them ;)

Maybe if the German Army tried........I could put up a good fight ;)

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#114 Post by tessa » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:31 pm

My challenge for someone to make a lego tshahark still stands.

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#115 Post by Naga » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Lego doesn't make the sort of parts I would want.

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#116 Post by Ancale » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:17 pm

I would make a Lego Tshahark, but I still dont have a clear picture of what they look like.

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tessa
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Re: Luminier/Alts

#117 Post by tessa » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 pm

I assume they look like muscle-bound Saurians. Maybe something roughly like this:

Image

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#118 Post by Delia » Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:30 pm

Pretty much how I imagine the lizardmen near Arborea look like.
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tessa
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Re: Luminier/Alts

#119 Post by tessa » Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:09 pm

I picture them looking similar to tshaharks, except a bit leaner.

Perhaps something roughly like this:

Image

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Re: Luminier/Alts

#120 Post by ramandu » Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:33 pm

Just to carry this thread even farther off base . . . Tshaharks may be alive and well in the states:

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptotourism/sc-lizard-man/
http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptotourism/sc-lizard-man/

but if you added a tail, I picture them somewhat like this:

http://theunexplainedmysteries.com/imag ... rd_man.jpg
http://theunexplainedmysteries.com/imag ... rd_man.jpg

Additionally, I like to think of Tshaharks as coming in different colors ranging from the black, brown, reddish, grey, green to a greenish-blue color. I think Astrid was black/grey and I have Ram's description to see him a greenish blue and I emote him becoming a deeper shade of blue on the occasion that he gets angry.
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