700 billions

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sun
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700 billions

#1 Post by sun » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:44 am

Any thoughts on this? It seems like Bush is getting anxious. Normally presidents don't try to scare people, but this is interesting. And mostly interesting on the more philosophical question whether it's right or wrong to do it.. I mean, a hard-core capitalist would probably leave the market alone. Crash whatever may. But now it's serious business, so then it's alright? Different ideologies for different occassions?

Zengo
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Re: 700 billions

#2 Post by Zengo » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:44 am

sun wrote:Any thoughts on this? It seems like Bush is getting anxious. Normally presidents don't try to scare people
I believe the media was the ones scaring people, making them believe America was on the verge of another "Great Depression"

No one knows what goes through his head, probably not even himself. However, you could easily come to the conclusion that it was so publicly overplayed that he felt he had to do something.

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Re: 700 billions

#3 Post by vurdijak » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:01 am

The media may have amplified the cries for help, but those cries were authentic and came originally from wall street business interests who are now putting immense pressure on Bush, Frank, Paulson etc. Passing this proposal will give a lot of rich people a free ticket, and that is why so many middle income Americans are calling their representatives and attempting to force another stalemate.

This country, like so many others, is a capitalistic shell with big government inside. In the last ten years, citizens for limited government have watched their last bastion slip away, to the point where both parties are overtly big government. The only difference is what they say they want to do with the government once they wield it. And believe me, the American government, though it has lost some clout, is still the most giant mithril two handed battleaxe on earth.

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Re: 700 billions

#4 Post by Zengo » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:18 am

Less government!

I hear you there.

However, the problem with Americans is that they are so easily and mindlessly indoctrinated by the media. The same ones (I do not mean you, Vurdijak) who scream for less government will also be the same ones who elect a president who will just add more to government (believing everything should be mandated) because the media keeps building up those types of candidates.
It will remain this way as long as the media is allowed to MAKE news, and not REPORT the news.

Sorry for the above rant, but I just felt like posting it.
Back to the original topic now.

Yes, I believe the stance Bush took on this, was pretty much the same stance he takes on everything. He lets the first group that puts pressure on him influence him drastically. I suppose this is what goes on when you have such a low approval rating (not as low as congress, but you never really hear that on the news...hmmm)

He has proven to be the easiest manipulated and most used political tool of all time.

So to answer Suns question, that could be why his ideologies change from situation to situation.

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Re: 700 billions

#5 Post by Abharsair » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:56 am

"Less government" isn't a solution, and neither is "more government". The only solution to the current problems is a "sensible government", which provides few but intelligent guidelines and rules under which an economy can grow and prosper without the recklessness and greed which can take entire countries down. And just like communism doesn't work, neither does unhampered capitalism (as recently shown at the Wall Street, or not so recently in Russia during the 90s).

Concerning the current financial crisis, it all depends on your personal lifestyle whether you should hope the bailout happens or not. If you largely own your house and your car, pay off your credit cards every month and have a couple thousand bucks saved up and have that money at a reliable bank, then you can afford to oppose the bailout (unless things get much much worse, in which case I suggest you invest in ammunition, antibiotics, booze and canned goods). If you however rely on credit for your car, house, paying your everyday bills, etc., and your financial assets aren't all that swell either, then you can only pray your government gets lending going again, or else things will get extremely rough for you.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

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Re: 700 billions

#6 Post by Naga » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:13 pm

Some zwould say that the iinternational bankers and the fanatical media hyping the bailout as the path oof nnational salvatiion are one and the ssame, butt thiss is still fringe... Sorry, keyboard troubles.

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Re: 700 billions

#7 Post by Delmon » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:26 pm

However, the problem with Americans is that they are so easily and mindlessly indoctrinated by the media
That's a little stereotypical for me to accept. I know plenty of fellow americans who are not "mindlessly indoctrinated by the media." That tells me there is a good percentage that isnt. The media, which does contain strong political, economical, and moral biases, isnt the end all for a lot of people, (mainly conservatives! :D). I find myself constantly making up counter points and criticizing news channels like CNN, MSNBC, and even Fox.

Back to discussing the government, I completely agree with Abhairsair. Got to have a good balance of regulation inside a free market system.

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Re: 700 billions

#8 Post by Andreati » Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:06 pm

I don't think that it's fair to be bailing out the banks/CEOs of major banks that made bad decisions. They're still being paid huge bonuses, despite the fact that much of the country has lost much (more) of its money. Not to mention that 700 billion isn't nearly enough to cover for the damages, or that the US is already in enough debt as it is. I believe that it's over 9 trillion today.

I agree with Absy that a sensible government is needed. But even then, it won't magically make the problem better; this isn't a problem that will be solved overnight. For personal lifestyle: Most people in the US will be effected by the crash somehow. People in seemingly stable situations can still lose their jobs or money in stocks, students will have issues getting loans and grants for college, and even if the money in the banks is insured now (I believe it's up to 100,000 for now, with a bill trying to be passed to raise it to 250,000), some people just won't be paid back any time soon.
There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives.

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Re: 700 billions

#9 Post by stilgar » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:56 pm

Giving away 700 billions won't solve anything. 700 billion on the financial market is merely nothing. :wink:

Nor this is the question of government. Its a question of how we (the so called western democracies) should relate to our own life. Long ago we started to live from loans.. as individuals and also as states. Governments or media has nothing to do with it. It was Our decision, we simply wanted more we could afford at the moment. Many think loans keep our economies in movement. We should be able to decide if that's true or not. Should be able to reorganize our life if necessary (it is).

This need at least two things. Have to change our point of view in economy and in our everyday life. Have to be more patient and yes.. have to give up a part of the everyday life's luxury. The extra money we spend today will miss tomorrow. :wink: We did spend a lot of extra money in the past ten years.. we do miss it now :cry: What is the solution?

Less comsumption, mainly in the form of environmentally sound and economical products. Invest into more efficient energy usage. Change our energy sources from fossil fuels to renewing energy source as soon as possible. I simply can't believe that energy from oil is cheaper than energy from the wind or the sun (not to mention the various other forms of natural energy sources.. and NO.. definiately not bio-diesel) Can hardly imagine its not efficient to use those instead of fossil fuels.. :wink: The moment we do this.. we change our point of view and yes.. the political preferences either. Governments that accept this might stay in power, those not, will be changed.

Why do I tell this? People tend to blame others on their faults. Some blame it on "foreigners", on some nations, religion, the governmet, the UFO or on something else, instead of simply say: Uh.. I made a mistake I have to change. The moment they realize they have to do something for things to change, have some effort towards chaging things instead of blaming it on others, expect someone else to act, things will change.

No sooner.. :wink:
Future is NOT what it used to be

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