Feints and Counters

[Lauriert]

Feints and Counters really shouldn't have a delay before the actual attack. This causes a lot of problems and is highly exploitable.

[Delia]

There was no delay when I started playing. The delay got added at some point for some reason.

[ferranifer]

I like the delay, a lot. It creates an extra layer of combat tactics and combat awareness that adds interesting nuance and decision making to PvP combat.

I like that if you're paying attention you can choose to disengage before the feint attack lands. Also, I've noticed that the next attack has a huge bonus even after movement (e.g. if you're followed), so this actually promotes the usage of the 'hunt' command. I've been hit BIG (critical breaks) twice by Nia on the next room after fleeing from feints. Fleeing just one room or fleeing and coming back in is not going to help, you have to actually disengage.

Disengaging already has heavy penalties and is far from guaranteed plus it means you're forfeiting that fight, so I am okay with this. It's a choice you make.

Please don't change the delay.

The only thing perhaps could be looked at is how easy it seems to be to score a feint or a counter against people of your same/similar skill/stat levels. Perhaps feint/counter should have reduced success rates against people with similar skills. Also, high intelligence should help avoid feints and counters to start with if it doesn't already.

In short:

• Please don't change the delay. It adds depth and interaction to PvP.
• Consider adding a way to counteract high fencing with your skills or stats. Fencing seems to have a very high success rate at maxed skills against people with maxed skills.

[Israfel]

Feints and Counters really shouldn't have a delay before the actual attack. This causes a lot of problems and is highly exploitable.

The delay adds a tactical element to combat that makes the fight more than just a numbers game. Either side can use this delay to their advantage so I don't think it's exploitable or problematic.

[Ottarr]

The delay works fine imo. If you're getting a guaranteed hit from a feint or counter it is only fair that it's telegraphed. Pure fighting doesn't need to be stronger.

As far as scaling defense against feints and counters, I would love to see high fencing skill play into defense. A a skilled fighter with high understanding of the fencing tactics being able to counter fencing attempts makes good sense. Mages and other intelligence based fighter hybrids don't really need more defensive boni stacked on top of all their toys surely.

Better scaling armor would be better for defending against "guaranteed" hits

[Lauriert]

The delay does not make a lick of sense. Feints and counters in real combat are fluid motions that take maybe a second to execute, not 3.

Everyone is missing the part where it can be exploited in team combat. Often in a team, you are focused down on a priority target. If you feint against them, they can simply move back a row and wait until your auto is wasted and then advance. Counters can just be ignored entirely this way and also be fleeing. A counter is lost entirely if the target somehow isn't in striking range.

This doesn't feel like a change that was made for any meaningful reason. It feels like a wizard got salty about getting feinted/countered and decided to nerf it.

Fencing is how slower chars are primarily expected to hit faster ones. If you make fencing terrible, you're only exacerbating people's complaint about AGI being too powerful.

[Ziban]

"The delay does not make a lick of sense. Feints and counters in real combat are fluid motions that take maybe a second to execute, not 3."

No. They aren't.

Feints and counters in combat are absolutely reliant on an orient-observe-decide-act loop - for a feint, you do the thing, the enemy reacts and then you do the next thing. For a counter, you prep the counter, then the enemy does the thing, then you either unload the counter, or look like a fool as they did a feint that fed your counter, and they then did their real action.

If you're going to run a three-second combat cycle because of lag and whatnot making the actual quarter second or so combat decision cycle impossible, then it's absolutely appropriate that a feint or a counter is a pass till the enemy's next action.

By the way, this is part of why the Lichtenauer tradition hates feints - if you go to hit the enemy in the nearest and closest part, they need to react to that. If you feint them, they could just hit you while you are mucking around.