Damage Scaling in PvP

[Lauriert]

This has been discussed at length in the discord server, as it relates to the balance of pvp. It's been largely decided that the imbalance of pvp isn't so much to do with guild balances or, to some people, even char exp so much. The main culprit is that weapon damage is WAAAAAY too high. To the point where every single build in the game besides an alpha strike light fighter is deemed unviable for pvp, whether that's a cleric, mage, or heavy fighter. Darkelves and humans are able to consistently get hits one would think is only normal for a dwarf or tshahark.

Here is how weapon damage causes problems in pvp.

It exacerbates the difference between stronger and weaker chars. If the battle is 2 seconds long, it is MUCH less likely the weaker character will pull an upset and win.

Humans, darkelves, and half-elves are the only races viable to play in this meta. Elves and halflings still don't have the STR to compete and their low CON means getting one shotted is more guaranteed. Dwarves and tshaharks aren't worth bothering with because their AGI is lower and their boosted STR doesn't matter when the 3 races listed can just consistently deal one shots anyway.

Clerics and mages are thought to be unviable because it's likely they'll be dead before having any chance to cast anything. I would debate this to some degree, but there is a lot of merit there.

Armor doesn't mean a single thing in pvp due to the damage scaling, You might as well be wearing dead weight. It's exacerbated more because the same changes also made heavy fighters attack and parry worse... this was an awful change.

The following excerpt of the combat-addon helpfile is where I and others get their info.
Weapons do more damage than they did in the past. This has been done because the general combat speed has become slower.

The armour-protection has become more important since the overall damage of the weapons has increased. To compensate the disadvantage of lightly-armoured fighters, the speed and success in attack/parry now also depends on the encumbrance of the armour. Thus, a fighter in full-plate suffers less damage, but he is slower and parries/defends/attacks worse.

[Delia]

A hard topic to tackle given no matter what is done, a bigger optimized fighter will just about always quickly win against smaller foes. What I do feel is that there is a tendency for miracles and magic feeling rather useless unless both are used to prepare beforehand as fights can really be pretty much over after the first hit you suffer but again that is a question of attack vs defence and as players really cannot know the numbers involved it always remains as some vague feelings.

If anything, 2H weapons max damage might be something to think over along with thrust attacks but it might again just mess some other aspect of the game. Dunno.

[iza]

Its interesting to see the meta has changed so much.

It used to be only dwarves and tshahark were able to do nasty damage, along with their high con they didn't bleed out as much as anyone else.

The evil warriors used to be rumored to have powerful weapons, and the good warriors had those nasty spears in the hands of tshaharks. I forget all their names now

I guess these aren't regular two handed weapons we are talking about here, two handed polearm from asral clerics were always so lackluster.

[Aslak]

I guess these aren't regular two handed weapons we are talking about here, two handed polearm from asral clerics were always so lackluster.

I can attest that the Asral fauchards aren't lackluster

[ceinna]

I dont think nerfing damage for anyone is the point. The fact is, that 10+ years ago, characters this big didn't exist. Characters like Delmon, Aisahi, Nyx, and others are way larger than even any of the "big" baddies (or goodies) I remember from way back when.

Also - I would argue that damage is much less an issue in PvP than the fact that tactics - ESPECIALLY with the goodies - suck. Fact is, while characters used to be smaller back then, we used to work together a whole lot better. The rangers knew how to use their weapons and skills properly, the crusaders actually went out of their way to team with and support the clerics of taniel, and the taniels played differently. I can likely count on one hand the amount of times I -ever- saw Tehanu alone. And she scared the living crap out of me on ANY character I had. She was never alone though. If she was there, guarantee she had at least 1, if not 3 or 4, other clerics and Crusaders somewhere within the very near vicinity.

Now people team up and everything goes to hell because people are so worried about being 'the badass' that they dont think about anyone else involved. We have WAY more ways of communication now - including voice chat - and yet we all used to work together a ton better back then for the most part without voice or even chat communication for the most part.

I would bet if people looked at tactics more in the game, and worked on developing those IC with others in their group, you would find a lot less of the supposed PvP imbalance.

Also - the other characters are very well capable of doing damage - especially harks. Ask Delmon with his split open head. Thing is, there was a combination of preparation, miracles, buffs, and other things in use. AKA - group tactics and people properly playing their classes - which is now a rare thing in the world of 'meta' on geas.

[Delia]

I have to agree with Ceinna. The focus on 1v1 and solo performance has risen a great deal. Also what I have observed over the years is that crusaders and taniels who are in the thick of it all are somewhat unpopular picks whereas neutral off-picks with unsupported gods are more popular. This kinda feeds communication trouble for goodies all across the board when people simple are in the wrong place, so to speak.

I always liked the idea that people could rally behind cities too, with cities providing telepathy orbs access to citizens.

[Xog]

So, for a long while I have played alone with my character.
Being on other muds, in which rp was not enforced, it was the normal.
We had guild lines, that was just basically ooc chat while we played, so, you never felt alone in the game.
Once I started playing with other characters, I found my enjoyment of the game increase a hundred fold.
However, never the less, we are not in the same timezone.
So, there is several hours where my character has to play alone.
So, I am wondering if its because of this issue where players more or less have decided to just build up a strong character for pvp instead of depending on team work?
Maybe back in the olden days, everyone was way younger, and we all had more time for late night sessions, and could team up more.
I love teaming up, and exploring/hunting/what ever.
It just seems like you feed off each other more, and your character comes into their own.
The personality is flushed out, and others can see you grow into your character.
From my understanding of the game, crusaders are meant to be like the holy warriors, standing in frontlines.
While the taniels are meant to be more your healers standing behind, healing, giving buffs etc.
Rangers, are the archers also behind the front line warriors, shooting arrows at the charging enemies.
I don't know what it was like back then, and if this is how it was back then, then wow, that must have been some site to see in big battles. Perhaps, if there were more larger battles, the three groups, ore more could join together, or would be able to join forces and train together?
I don't know. I am still learning how all this works.
As teams, goes, usually, you have your meat shields, their only job would be to take a beating, dealing punishment when can.
Then you have your light fighters, maybe in this case the shao.
"If" they get involved, they would be the larger part of damage dealers, quick and light on their feet.
Behind them, you have your archers, shooting arrows, and when the enemy is too close, then bring out the spears and join in the light fighters.
Then, there are the taniels, healing, buffing etc.
With a well rounded team, then the hole idea of overpowered in pvp isn't a topic anymore.

I think though from talking with some people, sense no one teams up as they should, single darkelves who attack that single player "could" be way over powering and then, really it wouldn't be fair to the other player.
Most of the darkelves, except may be 1 to my understanding have been around for over 10 years, and they have not only experience under them, but time as well.
Nothing against them, but what about up incomming players?
We don't know about team work, its not really talked about.
We are currently in the middle of a event in which there are pumpkin skeletons invading forostar.
Yet, I haven't heard talk of on the forums, or the rp section of teams getting together and routing them out.
Maybe, people can use the forums, to suggest rp times where groups can get together?
Maybe darkelves could team up and help the skeletons sence their like undead or some such.
It just seems like their could be alot of rp going on here, and it would give practice with folks in team work, learning how to work as a single unit etc.

Sorry for my ramblings, just my 2 coppers worth.

[Delmon]

As far as teaming I’ll say the evils are very coordinated right now. There’s only two main asador guilds and although the rp opens up for conflict between the groups we have natural enemies and little incentive (especially as darkelf) to go against that alliance. It does not mean all we talk about is pvp stuff and look for ways to beat goodies down and don’t have our issues, but when something is happening from a pvp perspective it’s all hands on deck and quick teaming reaction if we’re on at the same time. There has been large team fights. Yesterday we brought a team of four plus mercs to elvandar after a team of 4 goodies earlier attacked undead in the gorge and were run off by our defense. On the pumpkinheads, our group, especially one of us, has been relentlessly engaged in the event.

[Arsicas]

I do feel like the coordination of the goodies vs. that of the evils is a tricky thing. For instance, in the attack on Elvandar, there was a single gong of someone attacking the gates before the evils broke through and were wrecking havoc. And there were two Taniels, me, and an Asral to defend, who apart from the two Taniels had no way to communicate with one another or coordinate. So by the time we rounded each other up to team, the evils had already made their point and left soon thereafter. In this case, a city orb might be helpful.

Also, I have to say, huge team battles are super spammy and chaotic.

[Delmon]

One option is to give you a guild tell item(s) and create more watchtowers. Not easy to manage but that was always the strategy in former days. You had one coordinated line and planned tower raid mails with strategies on what to do(I have copies of these). Also our attack was planned to hit hard and quick without announcement to the world, yet even though our point was made we had to retreat early once the goodies rallied in the marketplace.

And lol poArsicas so true. I had no idea what happened to my char at the time other a bunch of red and heavy bleeding and being stuck.

[Arsicas]

One option is to give you a guild tell item(s) and create more watchtowers. Not easy to manage but that was always the strategy in former days. You had one coordinated line and planned tower raid mails with strategies on what to do(I have copies of these). Also our attack was planned to hit hard and quick without announcement to the world, yet even though our point was made we had to retreat early once the goodies rallied in the marketplace.

Yeah, if a guild is willing to put a bunch of outsiders on their line, that could be an option. But it does require being on good enough terms with said guild. I kind of like the city orb idea, cause you can be committed to defending a city while not necessarily being allied with X guild. But, maybe it offers channels for rp by having to negotiate getting on to a guild orb vs. just anybody (or maybe just citizens) being able to connect to a city orb.

And lol poArsicas so true. I had no idea what happened to my char at the time other a bunch of red and heavy bleeding and being stuck.

Me: Oh no, I was hit! Run away! Oh, I’m only somewhat hurt. Back into the fray! Did any of my stuff hit? I have no idea! Who am I fighting right now?? All these masked darkelves look alike!

[Delmon]

The key was that the crusaders and rangers and taniels were all on the “inside,” operating as one. Guild membership in one of these three should have access to crusader line imo, but that’s an IC discussion and not all chars agree. I like the city orb idea as well.

[Israfel]

The key was that the crusaders and rangers and taniels were all on the “inside,” operating as one. Guild membership in one of these three should have access to crusader line imo, but that’s an IC discussion and not all chars agree.

Yeah, I agree the teamwork potential of the current goodies is largely untested - there are some really big characters there. There is a huge amount more the goodies could do but those characters also have a lot of ground to cover in RP / guild management to reach it. It's more a question of if they 'should' rather than if they 'can' - I'm not sure it's all IC either. One of the biggest hurdles right now is the natural fallout of the 'good cleric who has actually been worshipping an evil deity the whole time' incident. I'm still scratching my head working out how to get my character past that one - I'd really like to.

[ceinna]

The key was that the crusaders and rangers and taniels were all on the “inside,” operating as one. Guild membership in one of these three should have access to crusader line imo, but that’s an IC discussion and not all chars agree. I like the city orb idea as well.

This should not be a guaranteed thing. There have been times throughout the games history when the Rangers were not allied with the Taniels/Crusaders and worse were at war with them.

[ceinna]

The key was that the crusaders and rangers and taniels were all on the “inside,” operating as one. Guild membership in one of these three should have access to crusader line imo, but that’s an IC discussion and not all chars agree.

Yeah, I agree the teamwork potential of the current goodies is largely untested - there are some really big characters there. There is a huge amount more the goodies could do but those characters also have a lot of ground to cover in RP / guild management to reach it. It's more a question of if they 'should' rather than if they 'can' - I'm not sure it's all IC either. One of the biggest hurdles right now is the natural fallout of the 'good cleric who has actually been worshipping an evil deity the whole time' incident. I'm still scratching my head working out how to get my character past that one - I'd really like to.

That is part of it. Theres also the "supposed goodies" who are friends with the evils. Etc. All things that really arent fully IC I think. Either way, it creates issues.

[Wade]

So now that darkelves and sathos/order have lost some, is this when I make a forum post about how tanielietes and asralites are too strong?

[Delmon]

I got this, Wade.

I think the biggest worst offense in the game obviously is that swords>spears! I mean... what??

Watch this and my -point- is proven (start from the beginning):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afqhBODc_8U