Death and the value of life.

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vurdijak
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#21 Post by vurdijak » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:42 am

Even though this is not a vote, I vote against the possibility of permadeath no matter how idiotic someone is acting. Simply put, even the remotest prospect of permadeath will drive people away from the mud and I am enjoying watching it grow (for those of you who are new, it is noticably growing).

I also vote against increasing the severity of the penalty for a single death, since this action has already been taken once (and apparently with not enough effect). Increasing it again will probably not be a deterrent, and besides this, it punishes those of us who die infrequently.

I think that lots of deaths in quick succession, lets say three or more, should warrant some additional penalty. What should the additional penalty be? I personally like the idea that nothing ever permanently hurts a chars. development. It is a safety net that helps others to take risks and go on adventures. But maybe its time for this safety net to go? Maybe at the third death, when the previous two were within a 12 hour GAMEPLAY period, development stops. The body and mind stop learning things. No skill development for a short stint. That oughtta teach 'em!

If, pantheon forbid, a fourth death occurs, at random 1/3 of the characters skills drop by 10-20 points, both types of knowledge.

A fifth death makes it more severe, at random half the skills drop between 20-40 points, both types of knowledge.

A sixth death and Drake gets to signon with Invincible Testie and pee the victim into permadeath.

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Re: Death and the value of life.

#22 Post by ganandorf » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:08 am

I just wanted to comment on the post someone made about capturing an evil one/crusader and torturing and leaving them humiliated instead of killing them. It does happen, but in many cases the captured is still playinig the headstrong hero, spitting in the face of his captures, saying shit like 'i will get revenge', Ive done it myself a few times before i became engaged in pvp and i realize this is the stupidest way one can RP. It's no fun for both parties, so instead of capturing someone, it becomes much easier to just kill them off and avoid them avoiding RP.
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sun
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#23 Post by sun » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:23 am

Drake wrote:It is the attitude of "I've reached the lowest vitality I can so more can't make it worse" which needs to be addressed.
What happens when you die then? I think if there are no effects of it, people won't RP it. I think of death as something weakening, but the vitality system is kind of boring, IMHO. It's just an invisible number.. !

It would be alot more fun if for example:
- you're too weak to wield
- you sludder when you talk
- you can't walk straight, you randomly walk in opposite direction
- you can't walk at all because your legs are too weak
- you are generally dizzy and you don't see rooms/people/items properly
- you forget people's names
- admins zap characters who play as if they remember the events leading to their death
- admins zap characters one extra time who go back for their equipment

... depending on how bad it is, you get more/less of those. Not that it only makes death more visible - it's actually going to be kind of hard to do serious PVP with those.

Anyway, my point is that you can, instead of having an invisible number, let the effects show.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I think the penalty as such is enough, I hate to die. The reasons people sometimes ignore it is another.

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Re: Death and the value of life.

#24 Post by Herst » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:46 am

A few things.

I have been a jackass who didn't fear death before, no fun for my captors. After reading some of the notes Jezz (I think) left on here, I realized how serious this was.

I have captured people (a few recently) who say they must sleep as soon as they are captured. Some do log off, others sit around for 2 or 3 more hours online.

I have released people who have been tortured (limb removal, etc) who instantly die after being released. Sure they may have made a mistake and walked the wrong way, but most people usually look where they are walking in situations like that, I know I always do.

I have killed someone and went to return their things to them, and they instantly attack me after redressing. Or they come dressed already and instantly attack. This has happened at least twice in the last 5 days. Even after this thread was started.

All of this leads to one thing. Kill them and leave their things where it is and ignore their existence. Is that any fun? No, not at all. I would rather capture them, torture them and have some fun with them. I still hunt some of them because they obviously do not learn their lesson even after dying X times and being left completely limbless. Sadly, I have the feeling it is going to be very redundant and a repeat of what has already happened before.

In general, I was like this until I started reading the forum. Usually everything on the forums that is as a problem are committed by people who do not even use this forum. I have made a lot of errors that were corrected by reading the messages left here. Perhaps it should be mandatory to have an account here? I know it has helped me a lot. If not, I may still play the death defiant hero as well.

Also, I like Suns ideas a lot. So far, I believe he has came up with the best solutions to the problem that would blend right into the already existing world we have.

-Perhaps you can wield, but you drop your weapons randomly.
-You can wear your armours, but they are too heavy and you fall down while walking/fighting and are too weak to flickup.
-The slurring of the speech would be important in miracles and dealing with NPCs, if you try to buy something, the clerk has no idea what you are saying, or if you ask an NPC something, they look at like they have no clue what you asked. When casting miracles, you accidentally target the wrong person from not saying the the right incantation etc......
-If dying X amount of times at bottom vitality, your stats drop down to their creation level. These stay there for a determined amount of time.

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sun
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#25 Post by sun » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:37 pm

Possibly a simple text message would do, reminding the person that he is supposed to be weakend by the death. Of course, some real effects is even better..

IMHO, after resurrection you should probably be tucked in a bed somewhere with priests/healers using herbs etc resting before you can get back on your feet. The last few hours before your death should be blank and you should not be able to get out of bed. That's at least how I see it from an RP perspective. Although, this might be slow/boring and therefore I can accept a slightly quicker way that must be RP'd.

And I have personally always tried to play it so that my character does not remember what happened and try to stay away from any type of dangers, but it's also kind of hard when people ask like "where's your stuff?" as if that was something a guy who just died cared much about. I mean, you die, but the equipment somehow seem to be the most important thing to some people and it's the first thing that gets them on their feet. Death should be a "milestone" in your life and not a "coffee break". I swear that the retrieval of the EQ is like at least 75% all of those extra death things. The equipment is somehow holy and sets all RP aside.

I think if you really want to help the situation: destroy the EQ of the guy you killed the second time you get him. Then at least there is no reason to return and it will also take a while until he gets a replacement set.

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Re: Death and the value of life.

#26 Post by Herst » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:22 pm

Well, as we were returning things to one person yesterday, he attacked us again before all things were returned. So we kept the items.

All this did was create more problems. I do not think that is a good solution.

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sun
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#27 Post by sun » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:14 pm

What problems?

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Re: Death and the value of life.

#28 Post by Herst » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:19 pm

It will start a never ending looting war.

Then, instead of trying to capture someone they will just be killed. Who wants to capture someone, release them and give them the opportunity to kill you and loot all your items then, severely handicapping you at some times? Not anyone I know.

The mud will simply turn in to an "I kill you, you kill me, I loot you, you loot me game" since that is exactly the response we got back from the other guilds leader.

Do I need to clarify more?

vurdijak
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#29 Post by vurdijak » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:06 pm

Items are retrieved so vigorously, and at the expense of RP, because some items are incredibly expensive and took literally days worth of game time to save for (depending on your profession). As for guild armors, to my knowledge some of them are as expensive or more expensive than customs. Also, its your guild armor and its an insult to watch your enemy parade around with it. Not that any of this justifies the repeated risks...

As for the never ending looting war, it can definitely be a problem. But what are the alternatives? Lets see...

1. Armor and weapons stay with you when you die and are rezzed (lame and unrealistic)
2. Keep it as is and deal with it if some ass doesn't respect the 24 hours of mining it took to get enough money for your mithril tiara. (good solution)
3. Have ghosts get the option to get their own items magically sent to them at the place where they are going to get rezzed (the items would remain if they choose not to do this). This could cost extra favour from the god and extra recovery time after the death (although not nearly as much as an extra death). It might only be available to those who are able a certain favour level, giving more incentive for godliness.

You died.
Your sense that your deity would transport your things for you, at a price.
Would you like your things transported to your deities main temple?
yes/no <choose one>

<God X>, annoyed with your petty request, grants you the favour and transports your things back to <X temple>. However, you feel that this menial task angered her somewhat.

Less 'realistic' than option 2, less lame than option 1. Thoughts anyone?

Keep in mind this option could never be available to god none people.

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sun
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#30 Post by sun » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:16 pm

Herst wrote:Well, as we were returning things to one person yesterday, he attacked us again before all things were returned. So we kept the items.
My idea was to destroy it, not keep it. But okay. Maybe there are better solutions anyway.

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Re: Death and the value of life.

#31 Post by ganandorf » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:33 pm

Well the neverending loot war could be a big problem in the game.
What else can one do when the opposing side refuses to deal,
saying 'return it or when we kill you we loot your ass and destroy everything'

There is already a thread on looting, so perhaps discussion about looting be made there. not in this one.

I think the system for deaths and items should be left the way it is. Dealt with in IC, but perhaps people should use some OOC discretion.
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gojin
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#32 Post by gojin » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:00 pm

What happens when you die then? I think if there are no effects of it, people won't RP it. I think of death as something weakening, but the vitality system is kind of boring, IMHO. It's just an invisible number.. !

It would be alot more fun if for example:
- you're too weak to wield
- you sludder when you talk
- you can't walk straight, you randomly walk in opposite direction
- you can't walk at all because your legs are too weak
- you are generally dizzy and you don't see rooms/people/items properly
- you forget people's names
- admins zap characters who play as if they remember the events leading to their death
- admins zap characters one extra time who go back for their equipment

... depending on how bad it is, you get more/less of those. Not that it only makes death more visible - it's actually going to be kind of hard to do serious PVP with those.
I like this idea. It would come close to forcing people to rp their deaths(for those of you who think that sounds bad remember this is an 'rp enforced' game).
Raising penalties is not the solution. If something is to be enforced by additional code or rules: Lower the number of playerkills in general, by making the use of other punishment methods much more attractive. Eg.:

- Make every killing by a player (even a crusader) lower his karma, unless an execution is ordered by the judge. But:

- Add a form of outlawship that allows a person to be killed _once_ without negative effect on karma. The killer may bring the head to the court to earn a bounty. (no endless killings/vendettas, someone must "earn" his next punishment first.)

- Enable to add markings to playerbody. A thief might get a cut into the ear, which lasts for many years. Classic medieval stuff.

- Add pillories to the marketplaces. Let offenders be put in there for some time (preferably in times with many players online . Classic medieval stuff, too, and it's good for captured offenders who refuse roleplay.
Let the karma and rep of the shown offender sink, and let the reputation of every citizen rise that spits at the offender.
This adds medieval realism AND more methods of gaining reputation. (someone asked for that).
I liked this idea as well. I believe the best way to avoid constant PVP killing or the 'death defiant hero' is to make other forms of punishment more severe ie-annoying for the player being punished. Maybe taking the miracle of restoring/replacing limbs away from clerics and healers? If your limb is cut-off it stays cut-off until reboot or some other long period of time(effectively crippling a pvp char). I lack other ideas but definately giving a bonus to those who punish and making punishments more annoying than deaths for those who are punished. This can only help the game imo.

PO Gojin

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Delia
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#33 Post by Delia » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:19 am

I would personally like to see the resurrection taking longer than the snap of your fingers.
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sun
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#34 Post by sun » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:04 am

Delia wrote:I would personally like to see the resurrection taking longer than the snap of your fingers.
I second that. It could at least take 5 minutes. Although it should probably be more like 15-30, IMHO.

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Re: Death and the value of life.

#35 Post by krelji » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:36 am

Delia wrote:I would personally like to see the resurrection taking longer than the snap of your fingers.
sun wrote:I second that. It could at least take 5 minutes. Although it should probably be more like 15-30, IMHO.
This sounds like an enforced coffee break to me. Being forced to be idle for 5-30
minutes would be very annoying. Furthermore it won't fix the problems of chars
acting like suicidal crackpots.
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tessa
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#36 Post by tessa » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:41 am

I get a bit tired of people who try to socialize as ghosts, too. Getting help is one thing, but small-talking or following people around as a ghost as if one was alive and well gets annoying.

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Re: Death and the value of life.

#37 Post by luminier » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:01 pm

do what should be done, ignore the ghosts.

anyways i liek the idea of an "enforced coffee break". after 5-15 minutes usualyl all the fighting is done anyways. people can act like suicidal crackpots but once they die they wouldn't be back for a while preventing them from killing themselves again.
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#38 Post by krelji » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:16 pm

luminier wrote:do what should be done, ignore the ghosts.

anyways i liek the idea of an "enforced coffee break". after 5-15 minutes usualyl all the fighting is done anyways. people can act like suicidal crackpots but once they die they wouldn't be back for a while preventing them from killing themselves again.
If the chars are suicidal crackpots, then this enforced coffee break will just delay
their next death by 5-15 minutes. And that's just pointless.
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Re: Death and the value of life.

#39 Post by Delmon » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:19 pm

"enforced coffee break"

Definate no way from me.

What about dying from an npc? I dont see people in the future wanting to waste 15-30 mins in an afternoon so they can go back and find their items from a frustrating npc encounter (and if they die AGAIN by accident while retrieving their items, well, with all the suggestions of death penalties so far it looks like they better have friends to help)

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Re: Death and the value of life.

#40 Post by Delia » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:35 am

I would say 5 mins at max, a lot less would do in the terms of a short breather but definitely more than around 5 secs it is now.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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