Group PvP

[stilgar]

I had and have the opportunity do take part in a lots of PvP combat while in game. As already mentioned at other places (although I know GEAS is by no means an equal opportunity MUD) some guilds currently and since some time was slightly or more frowned upon to have members that are not willing to take part in the "global struggle of Good vs Evil". Or don't even try to play identical to their original philosophy.

Let us take a look into this matter a bit. Let me take the Asral clergy as an example. They are warclerics, serve the god of war, yet they barely seen in PvP combat and not likely to start a war on either "goodies" or "badies" how come?

Easy.. currently their clergy is the only "marked for PvP" guild that has no groupheal ability or an ability to heal other members in their groups. Means.. an Asral team is more likely to loose in PvP than any other if it comes to group combat. This is the reason its possible that invading the Asral fort or Arborea is easy pie for the insects. As they have only self-support abilites we can say the longer a battle lasts the more obvious Asrals will simply lose.

Yeah.. you can say: well, the Crusaders have no healing abilites either, but they can be and are mostly backed up by the Taniel Clergy in skirmishes. In a war they are surely backed up by the Taniels. Asrals simply can't have friends by code that would heal them if they turn on either goodies or badies (they're mostly "too good fo Sathos and too bad for Crusaders&Taniels"). Potions can't be used in combat so they're simply doomed. What we have now is some kind of workaround.. they are not teamed, but definiately helped by other factions. As we all know without that support they simply unable to defend themselves

Why did I brought this up? Currently they're mostly stay out of greater scale conflicts. If you look at things and consider them you'll find it understandable. Its simply discouraging for players to play a warcleric who can't do anything in a REAL war (aka greater scale group PvP). Why would they risk guilditems, being hunted by stronger groups without the REAL possibility to defend themselves or strike back?

Of course you can aways say: come on.. they should train themselves, work aroud new tactics, collect friends... My answer: So far so good.. then go and try defend your fortress against insects, or Sathos or Crussies&Taniels when they retaliate and see what happens

So its understandable they simply choose to hunt Ogres and Trolls. Simply stay out of global polititics unless they forced into it as a puppet of either Crusade&Taniels or the Sathonite branch.

[tessa]

Dibs on replacing them with a Lilithian clergy.

[isengoo]

We usually don't like to whine about it, but it's kind of true. Our abilities are good, but without allies we are doomed from the start. It's kind of an interesting dynamic, actually.

Teaming with Crusaders/Taniels -> terrible roleplay IMO. Completely goes against some of Asral's main aspects. Add to that in order to team with them it's essentially required to have good karma (not by code or even by any written thing, but try and do otherwise and see what happens) which is actually bad karma for Asral. Bad times all around.

Teaming with Sathos -> better, but still doesn't fit. The aspects and karma match more closely, but the RP never seems to work out.

Asrals always want to do the right thing, which doesn't fit with the Sathos, but they do it in the wrong way which pisses off the Taniels. Like I said, doomed from the start.

Oh well, there's always trolls

[Herst]

You would think with 5+ Asral priests stomping around, each with the ability to buff themselves, cure themselves, set others on fire, make darkness, make light, and much more.....alone with 5+ followers around that it really shouldn't be much of an issue.

[stilgar]

You would think with 5+ Asral priests stomping around, each with the ability to buff themselves, cure themselves, set others on fire, make darkness, make light, and much more.....alone with 5+ followers around that it really shouldn't be much of an issue.

Bravo!

Any other fabulous ideas about the topic?

[Herst]

See below

[Herst]

We usually don't like to whine about it, but it's kind of true. Our abilities are good, but without allies we are doomed from the start. It's kind of an interesting dynamic, actually.

Hmm, a few months ago you could not walk from the Crossing to the board in Arborea without meeting 5 or more Asral followers. I do not mean priests either, I mean followers not in the Clergy. So you surely have allies.

[Herst]

Sure, since you asked for it.

I don't see a group of troll-slayers really useful to the mud, and the things I mentioned should be sufficient to get them involved in the world. They have the most members and followers of any other guild.

The problem could be Asral has become the "coolest and most popular guy" on the mud. Noobies flock to him because "His followers are nice to me and give me stuff" (that is what some of them will tell you). Others may say "I follow Asral because his followers don't care what I do, so I can hunt all day and he will like that" Then, when or if they join the clergy they have that mentality and don't really care about much else. I have seen players make these comments, so they are not exaggerations.

Maybe address those issues first, and see if there still is a problem.

You would think that a group that has the most powerful combat miralces on the mud, in addition to the most followers and most allies (such as people making potions for them always) and so on, would not need anything else. If they do, the problem doesn't lie with what they have, it lies with how they use it.

They have the numbers, they have the abilities. They have the resources.
What else should they get? Perhaps your ideas on what additions they need would be useful, because I can't think of one thing they need other than what they already have.

Also, players are not insects. Miracles that do not work on insects will work on players to give them a huge advantage. They have used them before and they worked just fine. The last 20 times I have fought an Asral priest, all they do is "hfire hfire hfire hfire" and absolutely nothing else. Except for 1 other time, and amazingly enough.......it was enough for them to win the fight. So, your mention about developing new tactics could be wise. Hfire target may not always be effective enough.

By your logic, I could also say that the Sathos are vastly at a disadvantage as well. We are vastly outnumbered. In addition to that, Crusaders can have extremely powerful unicorns. The Asral clergy has just as many members. We only have the ability to raise undeads. Even when all of our members are online at once it still isn't enough to compete against a team of Crusaders or Taniel Clerics. I know this, because it has happened 2 or 3 times in the last week. So, I suppose we should be screaming "Gimme Gimme Gimme" as well. After all, we are at a bigger disadvantage than anyone when it comes to numbers and allies.
However, we seem to be doing just fine.

I remember an incident a few months ago, with 1 Sathonite priest and 3 Asral Priests and 3 or 4 Asral followers. I will just say the 1 outsmarted the 6 or 7 fairly easily. Just another example of them not using what they had available to them at the time.

So, in conclusion my fabulous take on the topic is that you are asking that are needed, and ignoring what is already in place. I like the idea Tessa mentioned. Turn them into a Lilithian clergy.

[isengoo]

Good job once again Herst at completely missing the point. I don't think any Asral is saying 'gimme gimme gimme' at all. What is being said is that, roleplay wise, it's impossible for us to have any allies but ourselves. Yes, the Sathos are also at a disadvantage, but please don't try and say that undeads aren't worthwhile. With the addition of revenants, they are very tough to deal with for most anybody.

And yes, we have lots of newbie followers. They mean nothing in PvP, as you know, and usually act as a detriment in that regard. This isn't the fault of the guild or the god or anything, it just happens to be the case. Please stop finding causes for imaginary problems.

The main point here, I'll say it again, is that roleplay wise it doesn't make sense for the Asrals to team with anyone but themselves, which I guess is a disadvantage in PvP-land. Does that bother me? Not particularly. The only thing I really want is less finger pointing and blame laying.

[Herst]

Actually, I believe the topic of the point was to say that the Asral clergy needed more advantages to be involved in PvP. So perhaps you missed that.

You say RPwise is makes no sense for Asralites to team with others? Well, like you always say, that is open to interpretation. A few days ago an Asralite teamed with a Crusader to attack a Sathonite. It does happen, it has happened and it will probably happen again.

As for your followers being useless, well since Asral is the god of War and all this, perhaps train them to go to war? Teach them what Asral would like, instead of just tolerating them to follow Asral and making such statements as "I hate war" (which I have heard them say myself) You could say it is not the fault of anyone, it just happens to be the case, but I usually consider a clergies job to teach people about their religion not to convert mindlessly and take them troll bashing.

You say it is impossible to have allies but yourself......yet you have them.

I think the only disadvantage you have is the fact that you can heal others in your team. That can be easily handled with healing potions that you all seem to carry so many of.

If you feel you can't have allies but yourselves, well that is just a disadvantage of being in the Asral Clergy. Do you see the Sathonites running around teaming with anyone else? I think the amount of undeads they are usually seen with is about the same as having a group of Asral priests with miracles.

Every guild has advantages and disadvantages. I believe the Asral clergy is the strongest clergy in combat.

[sun]

The asral clerics are no weaker and even if they were, that's a poor excuse not to PvP if you find a reason to. The asral clerics are supposed to be brave and would probably find glory in beating a bigger foe. I think that's at least a few things you can say about the asral belief since it's pretty much what happened in the arborean/human history. And even if it was so, the asral clerics actually are weaker there still is no reason to expect some kind of equal oppurtunity or fairness.

The real problem about asrals is that they have absolutely no purpose in the world. Like with other guilds like the druids, shao-lin (and maybe rangers), they seem to have no active goal they can pursue, or at least none that matters in any way. So I think it's much more interesting to ask why we have guilds without purpose. It seems to me like first comes lore, from which comes reasons and then comes guilds not the other way around. I think for example the shao-lin has some new "post-construction" kind of goal set, but since it does not really stem from any lore or history it's mostly useless and doesn't really affect anything that much. The asrals only incentive to live is to defend against more insects (at least what I can see), but that is very passive and re-active type of play. They do not seem to have any agenda that they can push on others or any kind of every-day goal that they can achive. Same thing with druids, which seem to be almost completely de-coupled from the world and have no purpose, except maybe one, which in that case I think is kind of counter-productive to the game world. I'll leave the rangers out since I'm not that updated, but it seems to me like they are perhaps not the most active goal-seeking either. Although I might be wrong because it seems they have started to set some restrictions, but I'm still not sure about the goals. Anyway, these guilds are kind of "max freedom for the individual" which make them very, very boring, but it seems to attract players who want the best of both worlds, if it isn't for the cool skills or weapons/armours/miracles.

Which pretty much leaves the crusaders, taniels, thieves, order and sathos. The thieves are kind of special, the order is kind of dead.. which leaves like 3 guilds with an active purpose. It's kind of narrow, but it is at least possible to pursue.

I think the real solution is to seriously cut back on some guilds that don't work and have no purpose, especially with a playerbase that only supports at max 2-3 occupational guilds. Furthermore, merge the crusaders and taniel guilds, it's not such a big difference anyway. In a simple world, you could have only one guild as "establishment", the middle folk in between and those who chose to be evil/outlaws.

New guilds should be added on the basis of lore and history with reason, purpose and economic background not like new armour sets.

Anyway, the problem is not about the asral guild in particular, it just happen to be one out of more dead ends.

[sun]

I just wanted to add that you could probably do equally good RP without the restrictive/thin official lore that Geas offers for those guilds. For example, you could charm up a gang of people and meet somewhere in a swamp under a stone every tuesday and create a new cultish movement that set up some weird agenda like killing everyone with a name beggining with any letter in the first 1/3 of the alphabet, rolling dice, left handed's or anything just as absurd. Then you could go out and secretly assassinate those people in the name of your holy tribe's beliefs and be proud about yourself. The sucky part is that you would have to make something completely up - which is exactly the case with the lore (including guilds like the asrals) in many aspects of geas (although the example might even be more fun that the asral's guild). But anyway, there's nothing official. There are no hard-wound facts. When it comes to the asrals there are just shards of something for a base for anything, and that's still one of the richest organisations with history. It's only when you can base your characters beliefs from a chosen set of facts that it becomes interseting.

[Herst]

I agree they are no weaker than anyone else, and even if they are.....that is not an excuse.

Eh, I have to disagree with the point of them being useless to an extent.

The Asral Clergy serves a huge role on the MUD since they are a major part of history. I think if they took steps to be more ........... useful then they would be fine.

As for the other guilds you mentioned........

I wouldn't mind seeing the Crusaders assimilated into the Taniel Clergy, or the Rangers assimilated into something for Evren along with the druids. Perhaps forming 2 new guilds. (Not my idea, but I like it)

As for the Asral Clergy, I think they would be more fitting to be more warrior like and less priest like. Allowing their non guild member followers to partake in some of their abilities.

Maybe this would help more

[sun]

I don't see what their "role" is. Of course it could be something, but it isn't. I mean, what goals do they have? Being honourable and brave is not a goal for a guild. Somehow supporting war is not a goal. Sure, Asral adopted man.. and then a church was made at some point.. the history and reason for that is kind of unclear on some points actually. Okay, what next? What are they trying to achieve in their daily life? There's no answer to anything. Bashing insects maybe, but apart from that? There are some fuzzy "aspect" words like war, battle, death, etc.. but you can make almost anything out of it. It's just a few words where there should've been an essay.

[Herst]

I believe that is something for their clergy to answer, achieve and so forth.

They have been around for a long time, and an Asralite guild is something the MUD needs.

Maybe a rework of them, or their clergy making their goals more known would be alright, but I don't think we should get rid of them by any means.

Then again, we do need a Lilith clergy

[stilgar]

Let me point out again. Group PvP is barely about only dealing damage but at least as much soaking damage. I won't try to explain it more, if you did not get it so far, you won't, not matter what I'll try to write (already experienced that )

About crappy RP players and guilds.. well.. I won't go into that. Its simply childish to say a guild should be treated this or that way while it has a certain type of players.

I think the point is somewhere around sun's comment. If Asral's have no in-game purpose why should they be reworked at all? Lets discuss a bit about Asral's role in Forostar.

I simply don't think a MUD or any game except chess can be nice if you have just two colors: black & white. GEAS is filled with politics in the moment politics NEEDED. Currently: Taniels and the Crusade can literally do anything without anyone able to stop them south of the Tundra. Why so? They simply have no balancing power. Asrals could be this power. I don't think balancing a guild equals tweaking it. I gave some points IMO how should they look like at the end.

I remember times on this mud when this happened. Asrals battled both Sathos and Taniels and they were able to stand their ground. No one at that time complained about them lacking a role in the game

[Herst]

Ok, now I see what you mean.

I agree totally with you, but I thought you were saying since they had no "group healing" they were not able to stand in combat.

I wouldn't mind seeing Asrals vs Taniels/Crusade vs Sathos for a fight for power

I have always thought the Asrals should try to take back Arborea and reclaim it, and treat it like the Tanielites do Elvandar.

As for dealing damage and soaking damage. I am sure the Asral clergy can deal more damage than someone is able to soak up before they die. I have seen it before.

[sun]

About crappy RP players and guilds.. well.. I won't go into that. Its simply childish to say a guild should be treated this or that way while it has a certain type of players.

I simply don't think a MUD or any game except chess can be nice if you have just two colors: black & white.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Did anybody say that or what?

[ganandorf]

Currently the asrals are not doing much it is very true, and i dont mean to say this in an offensive way, there has of course been the lack of an actual 'leader' of the clergy for quite some time. But i see it happening even now the clergy is growing in number, or those that stopped playing there asrals for some reason are returning back to them.

I completely disagree with removing the asral clergy from the game ( i doubt it would ever happen but someone suggested it in the thread). Currently they may not be doing much, but who knows, in the past and int he future they have been/might again be a very powerful force. If you have problems with how they are right now, make your own cleric and try to change that, wage war against both taniels and sathos and see how much fun you have.

[Andreati]

Ganon makes a good point:
If you have a problem with a guild, say the Asrals. Stop complaining , log in your characters--because I know that you have them--and do something about it yourself.