Group PvP

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tessa
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Re: Group PvP

#41 Post by tessa » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:26 am

stilgar wrote:To Tessa: I did not talk a single time about slaying Trolls or Hack&Slash, I was talking about PvP, nevertheless feel free to go on with your thoughts :wink:
You've also failed to explain what PvP has to do with getting in the way of having guild background or depth.

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Re: Group PvP

#42 Post by stilgar » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:38 am

I did not talk in this topic about Guild Background at all.. did not even wanted to... still.. go on :wink:

The only point I mentioned IC things was their connection to the codebase, namingly: hard to RP something that has no code-support. Since that time Drake revealed Asrals CAN be powerful, so I'll research that part.

Meanwhile feel free to carry on with your dispute :wink:
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tessa
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Re: Group PvP

#43 Post by tessa » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:07 am

stilgar wrote:The only point I mentioned IC things was their connection to the codebase, namingly: hard to RP something that has no code-support.
Not really, you said this:
Not to mention to effectively RP a warcleric you need some chance to win a PvP fight.
Code-support =/= PvP.

Even replacing your first reason with your second one, I don't see how it inhibits the roleplay of an Asralite. Even with code-support and successful PvP, RP is a loose cannon if they don't understand why they do it or why the Warclergy even exists, which was my point. I think understanding the reason behind their existence or goals is a bit more important to RP than simply killing stuff whimsically.

Now, I'll go ahead and post my reasons why I think the Asralites currently fail at PvP environments (and no, they didn't always suck).

1) They're always the defenders, never the aggressors. The first strike is half of the fight, and Asralites always seem to let their enemies go first, on their enemies' field of advantage, after said enemies have prepared for the fight. Yes, Asralites are always going to be on the losing situation of things when this happens.

2) Serious lack of coordination. Sathonites and Tanielites work like a pack of hyenas or wolves, always together or nearby. Even during the times they separate, the second you attack one, the other ones around pour out of the woodworks in seconds en masse. Asralites? They seem to do their own thing and take ages to support each other when under attack, if they even do. And even if they do, they have a tendency to scatter to the winds when things turn bad. This makes them easy to hunt down and pick off one by one.

3) Serious lack of information. Sathonites and Tanielites are excellent at keeping each other informed of recent happenings, attacks, events, and so forth. Either through their boards, through mail, or through guildlines. Guilds having a collective network of information is vital to survival. Asralites? They seem often clueless of recent happenings. Their guildboard is hardly ever used. I have the impression they don't even keep each other up to date via mail. They never seem to know when they were attacked, when the guild was attacked, where their missing guildline items went (and the line is never checked or mantra-changed later, I've learned), who has died, who has assaulted them, who has whose belongings after they died, etc. Or even situations where an Asralite escapes a near-death ambush and fails to tell his guildmates about it, so they fall into the same trap seconds later. It's not very hard to beat down people that are this clueless.

A second part of this is accuracy of information. It's important to keep facts straight. Asralites seem to fail at doing this. I've watched people tell Asralites precise information, and watched them repeat something so distortingly inaccurate I wonder if we're thinking of the same subject. Things such as "Crusader helped me" get turned into "Crusader killed our friend" or "Crusaders recently recovered the insect portal stone from the Sathonites" get turned into "Crusaders stole the insect portal stone from us a year ago and have refused to use it all this time". I mean, come on.

4) Serious lack of tactics. Sathonites and Tanielites take full advantage of every ability they have, and they change old habits quickly as soon as they're proven to no longer be effective, or they find something even more useful. Asralites? They never seem to explore much out side of either frenzy+twohanded weapon at neck or wimpy/defend+spam hfire. It's not really that hard to defeat them once you figure out one of the dozens of ways to trump these predictable tactics.

5) Learning when to fight and when to withdraw. If you want to pick a fight and win, please don't charge into 4-5 guys and expect good results. Especially if you don't retreat when you're being smacked around like a rag doll. It's even worse if you walk into an ambush that could be easily avoided by simply looking ahead before dashing along.

6) Learning when to call it a day. I've seen Warclerics trying to lethally PvP teams that grossly outskill them 5 minutes after ressing for the third time in the past 20 minutes. I have no possible idea how one can expect to win, either in the immediate moment or in any near future, when they commit senseless suicide-runs that do nothing but weaken them further.

So, before we start blaming Asralite ineptitude on design flaws, I think we would do better to stop all these operator errors.

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Re: Group PvP

#44 Post by ganandorf » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:30 am

Firstly, before i make my post, i just wanted to say im just trying to give my opinion Not trying to insult or point fingers at any asrals.

I agree strongly with everything tessa says. From by brief PvP against you guys I've noticed a few trends.

1) No tactics. No offense but you guys do not use all of your abilities to the max. General strategy you guys currently use, atleast those iv pvpd against:
Blood, Blood, Hfire and hope something catches on fire, dual wield, aim at random part of body to add originality. I have to though, i noticed one effective strategy by isengorn, that almost killed us, something thats most likely common, but ive never seen it, props on that I wont say what it was.

2) No common sense. In one day Herst and I killed the same group of asrals was it 3? maybe 4? times. Has it ever occured to you, that once you die, and people are making bargains to return your equipment to you, do not walk in and attack them?

It's mainly about strategy, To be honest, I'm probably one of the weakest sathonys clerics to have ever existed, atleast, not the smartest. But I've found ways to hold my own against teams of 4-5 taniels (a crusader, his unicorn, and 2 clerics). Yes Undeads do help, but when clerics can walk in, Holy word, cause them to run, or just split up the team in other ways. I have to work aroudn that, figure out another way to beat them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. and when it doesnt, i find another strategy at that point.
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Re: Group PvP

#45 Post by luminier » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:26 pm

Id like to add that the undeads near kill unicorns with about 2-3 blows, slight hit or otherwise, that a crusader alone against a cleric and undead is like nothing, and that not all clerics are tehanu powerhouses. *defends honor*
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Re: Group PvP

#46 Post by Olrane » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:39 pm

Too bad about the unicorns dying - I still wish there was a way to get mounts resurrected within the game code for a price of 20-30 gold (to be consistent with the ticket replacement fee). It's stifling for PvP that it's OOCly cruel to kill an opponent's mount.

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Re: Group PvP

#47 Post by ganandorf » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:41 pm

The Clerics that were with the crusader may not have been tehanu powerhouses, but with a bit of common sense, I guarantee That the three of you (crusader and 2 clerics) could have beat me down.
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Re: Group PvP

#48 Post by luminier » Wed Nov 12, 2008 10:07 pm

you can have all the common sense in the world, all it takes is one good hit. Olrane, I bow to your idea... animals in general especially holy ones should be able to be ressurected by clerics or somehow at least... *cries* i just want my mounts to stop dying!
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Re: Group PvP

#49 Post by Olrane » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:10 am

The only reason why I put forth that idea is because I've been disappointed to stay my hand from killing a unicorn just because I don't want to screw over the player.

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Re: Group PvP

#50 Post by ganandorf » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:54 am

Well either you kill the unicorn, or it kills you, one of the two is bound to happen.
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tessa
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Re: Group PvP

#51 Post by tessa » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:30 am

You can always send the Crusader a package of cooked unicorn meat as a thoughtful gift.

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Re: Group PvP

#52 Post by ganandorf » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:32 am

Unfortunately i wasnt able to cook it. Hopefully raw unicorn meat is just as good?
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Re: Group PvP

#53 Post by Herst » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:07 pm

Unicorns are extremely powerful. They are like a warhorse on steroids, and they are only half the price.

I think being able to kill one with somewhat ease (which I haven't experienced yet)
is a good balance to the Crusader being able to kill you with a charge and instant melee attack before the enemy can respond.

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Re: Group PvP

#54 Post by luminier » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:08 pm

it's true charging is powerful, but even warhorses can charge. and that takes alot of training to open that ability up. as well as the conditions being correct. theres are many many cases when charging is simply not an option.
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Re: Group PvP

#55 Post by Delia » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:24 pm

Not to mention doing the charge attack takes a while to execute. IF you happen to suspect you are being targeted by one you have plenty of time to evacuate. (remembering the legion times)
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Re: Group PvP

#56 Post by luminier » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:13 pm

heh it's good to have u gunning for my side delia, that is just one of the many conditions that have to be met. it isn't exceedingly powerful for shits and giggles.
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Re: Group PvP

#57 Post by Herst » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:24 pm

Since it can critically succeed, how about some critical failures for it as well?

Such as the horse/unicorns throws you off when it raises and rushes towards the target anyways, without the owner mounted. While falling the owner has a chance to break a limb, leaving the mount getting slain, butchered and eaten by the enemies!

All based on animal handling, and mounted combat skill.

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Re: Group PvP

#58 Post by ramandu » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:42 pm

As for mounts, I have seen Druids res mounts, but there are very few around for reasons mentioned above.
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Re: Group PvP

#59 Post by luminier » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:12 am

Herst wrote:Since it can critically succeed, how about some critical failures for it as well?

Such as the horse/unicorns throws you off when it raises and rushes towards the target anyways, without the owner mounted. While falling the owner has a chance to break a limb, leaving the mount getting slain, butchered and eaten by the enemies!

All based on animal handling, and mounted combat skill.

Whew, it's based on skills. okay im safe.
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Re: Group PvP

#60 Post by stilgar » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:46 am

idea:

Why not let badies raise undead mounts? Like some undead are already have them? Raising them exclusively from mounts? That would stop them hating the unicorns and would add some salt to the RP side too. :twisted:
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