Group PvP

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still MUD-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

Message
Author
User avatar
tessa
Overlord
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:03 am
Location: My own imagination.

Re: Group PvP

#21 Post by tessa » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:50 am

Righto.

*starts mining away the support structure of the plateau that the Asral monastery is on*

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Group PvP

#22 Post by luminier » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:37 am

Righto.

You mount your unicorn.
You wield a long wooden rider lance in your right hand.
You wield a long wooden rider lance in your left hand.
You wield a long wooden rider lance in your right foot.
You wield a long wooden rider lance in your left foot.
You wield a long wooden rider lance in your teeth.
You wield three long wooden rider lances under your right arm.
You wield three long wooden rider lances under your left arm.

Charge east at Asral Fort.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Group PvP

#23 Post by sun » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:24 am

ganandorf wrote:I completely disagree with removing the asral clergy from the game ( i doubt it would ever happen but someone suggested it in the thread). Currently they may not be doing much, but who knows, in the past and int he future they have been/might again be a very powerful force. If you have problems with how they are right now, make your own cleric and try to change that, wage war against both taniels and sathos and see how much fun you have.
I don't think anyone ever proposed we should remove the asral guild, at least not me. What I tried to say was that the guild does not have a goal and that is wrong. But in either case, making a new character isn't going to solve the problem about the lack of purpose for the guild. It makes no sense that the players must create that.

User avatar
Andreati
Master
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:17 am

Re: Group PvP

#24 Post by Andreati » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:57 am

If you want to see change, oftentimes, you need to help the process along. This game is meant to be led by the players, that is why we do not have chains around our necks and wizards walking us down the street, telling us what to say or what to do.
There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Group PvP

#25 Post by ganandorf » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:34 pm

You can keep discussing this, saying oh all the asrals do is mine and kill trolls and ogres, Whereas you yourself play a character that is a taniel Friends with almost everyone. Why dont you go make an asral character join the clergy, train to change something? Instead of just sitting around talking about how something should be changed, how others should act. Make an asral, fight both crusaders and sathos see how easy it is
Meow

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Group PvP

#26 Post by sun » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:19 pm

Andreati wrote:If you want to see change, oftentimes, you need to help the process along. This game is meant to be led by the players
I don't see how that contradicts what I said... and trust me I know about helping the process. But I am not sure what you mean "meant to be led by the players". Sure, it it's up to the players to decide their roles and fit into the world, but they can't be the ones to define it.
ganandorf wrote:You can keep discussing this, saying oh all the asrals do is mine and kill trolls and ogres, Whereas you yourself play a character that is a taniel Friends with almost everyone. Why dont you go make an asral character join the clergy, train to change something? Instead of just sitting around talking about how something should be changed, how others should act. Make an asral, fight both crusaders and sathos see how easy it is
I assume you are referring to what Herst said? I agree that it's wrong to target some players in particular (which is why I never do it). But on the other hand I do not think that creating a new character can help some problems. My argument was that some guilds had no goal, and if that's what you were referring to, I do not think a new character can solve that. I also do not think one should care too much about who wins or loses when it comes to PvP, it's one of the least important things if you ask me. The things which are fun and you will remember is the RP associated around the events.. Note that I'm not suggesting that the right course is that the asral clerics must attack the good/evil side or that it.

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Group PvP

#27 Post by sun » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:33 pm

stilgar wrote:Let me point out again. Group PvP is barely about only dealing damage but at least as much soaking damage. I won't try to explain it more, if you did not get it so far, you won't, not matter what I'll try to write (already experienced that :wink: )
stilgar wrote:So its understandable they simply choose to hunt Ogres and Trolls. Simply stay out of global polititics unless they forced into it as a puppet of either Crusade&Taniels or the Sathonite branch.
stilgar wrote:I had and have the opportunity do take part in a lots of PvP combat while in game. As already mentioned at other places (although I know GEAS is by no means an equal opportunity MUD) some guilds currently and since some time was slightly or more frowned upon to have members that are not willing to take part in the "global struggle of Good vs Evil". Or don't even try to play identical to their original philosophy.
I disagree that they need group healing to play their original philosophy or play in the good vs evil struggle. In my opinion, what they lack is a guild goal that somehow tells them what to do. With a goal it gets easier and more narrowed down to what they are supposed to do, they get a philosophy, and they can get an identity. With that set they can more easily get followers since they have something they follow to begin with.

Maybe it's off-topic, but I think there's too much talk in general about adjusting the combat system. Sure, it has its flaws, but is that really what is needed? I think it's in general good if you compare to other MUDs. And must the combat system somehow support a fair fight for people to join pvp? I reason that characters make their decision from their beliefs, not whether the code supports an easy or even fair battle. Even if it was true about mass healing, which it isn't, I don't think it would be needed. What we might need is a little support for more diversity, if anything, but the way I see the real part that is missing is the lack of a set of "world facts" relevant to that clergy to allow some RP-based decisions.
Last edited by sun on Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Andreati
Master
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:17 am

Re: Group PvP

#28 Post by Andreati » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:37 pm

I'm with Sun on this: No need for a group healing.

Guild goal: Follow Asral and do what he wants.
There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved by a suitable application of high explosives.

Delmon
Champion
Posts: 751
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: USA

Re: Group PvP

#29 Post by Delmon » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:42 pm

Asral is a neutral god. His domains include war and
death. He is the patron of the humans who abandoned
Sathonys.

So guild goal= pvp
(death or victory)

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Group PvP

#30 Post by sun » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:43 pm

Andreati wrote:Guild goal: Follow Asral and do what he wants.
I do not think that is a "guild goal". It doesn't in any way declare what the players seek to do and allows for just about any definition. Since also basically nobody knows what Asral wants, it's still impossible. To get the favour, you need only a minimum of actions which do not make you active.

What I mean by guild goal is something that a player can work for every day. It doesn't have to be killing stuff, but it should be based on some historic events that caused some group of people to push for an agenda for (or against) something. Or something similiar, based on a kind of fact or economic ground.

User avatar
sun
Master
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Group PvP

#31 Post by sun » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:46 pm

Delmon wrote:Asral is a neutral god. His domains include war and
death. He is the patron of the humans who abandoned
Sathonys.
Ok, that's some very brief background but hardly enough for a guild goal...
Delmon wrote:So guild goal= pvp (death or victory)
Player vs Player fighting? I do not think Asral even knows about the concept "player"..

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Group PvP

#32 Post by luminier » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:55 pm

What is "PvP" to us, is fighting and wars IG. I am sure Asral has some concept of war. In my opinion, being an Asral wouldn't be easy at all, fighting would be constant, unless you are highly skilled and successful death would be constant. War and Death/Destruction. That is what Asral wants.

Anyways Asrals have big potential just get the His power up. You have lots of members I think, so it shouldn't be too tough. Not like you need lots of members anyways... Herst and Ganon have proved that.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Group PvP

#33 Post by ganandorf » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:03 pm

To Sun:
My comment was a general comment against those who point fingers at the asrals. AS well as i completely misunderstood tessas post because i am completely retarded.

And yes making a new characte rmay not help because of the intesne training that should go in and what not.

I guess my comment was made to other comments, and not to what your original post was asking. To that i dont have an answer
Meow

User avatar
stilgar
Champion
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Pecs, Hungary

Re: Group PvP

#34 Post by stilgar » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:48 am

sun wrote:I disagree that they need group healing to play their original philosophy or play in the good vs evil struggle. In my opinion, what they lack is a guild goal that somehow tells them what to do. With a goal it gets easier and more narrowed down to what they are supposed to do, they get a philosophy, and they can get an identity. With that set they can more easily get followers since they have something they follow to begin with.
I you carefully read my post it isn't about the RP part rather the code-background of it. I even mentioned to topics connected to this one. You can say well, collect followers and even the odds. With the playerbase 10-22 online I presume we know it has slim chances. :wink:

Not to mention to effectively RP a warcleric you need some chance to win a PvP fight. Else, you can go and play with trolls and avoid PvP unless you'd like others to laugh at you and your "Wargod" :wink:

I think I played GEAS long enough to say I have seen several players playing warclerics. I barely remember ANY of them being able to form a group by their own that was able to burn the Crusader Fort or Asador alone or with the help of followers. What does that mean? Either ANYONE playing a warcleric so far was a weak player OR they simply can't fit their role by code as they are no REAL threat to their "possible enemies". (and yes, saw both Sathos and Taniels burning each others cities plus Arborea, and raiding each others places)

And I don't say they should be tweaked, I'd only suggest to think about it this way a bit :wink: Without either a safe haven to retreat and train OR the capability to defend themselves effectively and support followers or guards or each other with heals they are simply doomed in PvP, IMO :wink:

Not to mention the Areas needed bigger groups to enter. I think no Asral group was ever able to succesfully fight at places where larger number of strong enemies appeared. If 4-5 (or more?) strong NPC starts to do focus damage on a single char he simply CAN'T heal himself fast enough to survive. Means.. they simply fall one by one..
Future is NOT what it used to be

Pecs, European Capital of Culture 2010

User avatar
tessa
Overlord
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:03 am
Location: My own imagination.

Re: Group PvP

#35 Post by tessa » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:04 am

Not to mention to effectively RP a warcleric you need some chance to win a PvP fight.
I disagree with that a bit. I don't think you need to be successful in PvP to be able to answer with something other than "Uhhhhhh" or "iunno" when a potential recruit asks you basic insight about your god or the ways of his clergy.
I barely remember ANY of them being able to form a group by their own that was able to burn the Crusader Fort or Asador alone or with the help of followers.
I forget whether they had helping hands in it or not, but I remember hearing stories about Asralites raiding Asador frequently, and once very long ago, raiding Elvandar and the Taniel church. You'd probably remember the latter story better than I, but I'm pretty sure the former was done with only Warclerics and followers (one such occasion happening with only one warcleric and one ranger).

User avatar
stilgar
Champion
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Pecs, Hungary

Re: Group PvP

#36 Post by stilgar » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:38 am

They did not do Asador alone, they did Elvandar.

If the Asral fort defenses would be like at least the Crusader Fort's I'd agree the rest is thinking and RP. Currently I should say monitoring this two point to say EITHER of these needed to do serious PvP, they miss both :wink:
Future is NOT what it used to be

Pecs, European Capital of Culture 2010

User avatar
stilgar
Champion
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Pecs, Hungary

Re: Group PvP

#37 Post by stilgar » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:43 am

tessa wrote:I disagree with that a bit. I don't think you need to be successful in PvP to be able to answer with something other than "Uhhhhhh" or "iunno" when a potential recruit asks you basic insight about your god or the ways of his clergy.
stilgar wrote:Else, you can go and play with trolls and avoid PvP unless you'd like others to laugh at you and your "Wargod" :wink:
Future is NOT what it used to be

Pecs, European Capital of Culture 2010

User avatar
Drake
Wizard
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:31 am
Location: In the land down under
Contact:

Re: Group PvP

#38 Post by Drake » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:05 am

stilgar wrote:They did not do Asador alone, they did Elvandar.

If the Asral fort defenses would be like at least the Crusader Fort's I'd agree the rest is thinking and RP. Currently I should say monitoring this two point to say EITHER of these needed to do serious PvP, they miss both :wink:
That is incorrect, Asral teams, of as little as 2, did in fact successfully raid Asador and Elvandar on more than one occasion.

And there has been absoloutley no reduction in the potential of an Asral Cleric since that time.

I think you need to look elsewhere for exactly what the problem is now.

As for their gate guards, the information of why they are what they are was passed on to Asral Clerics by Felron when their guild was moved. Either that information failed to be passed on, or was simply not acted upon when it was so improvements to those defences could be sought.

Drake
Evil in Training.
Gods middle finger.

User avatar
tessa
Overlord
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:03 am
Location: My own imagination.

Re: Group PvP

#39 Post by tessa » Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:15 am

stilgar wrote:
tessa wrote:I disagree with that a bit. I don't think you need to be successful in PvP to be able to answer with something other than "Uhhhhhh" or "iunno" when a potential recruit asks you basic insight about your god or the ways of his clergy.
stilgar wrote:Else, you can go and play with trolls and avoid PvP unless you'd like others to laugh at you and your "Wargod" :wink:
And I don't think you need to be successful at hack and slash to be able to answer basic background/lore concepts about your god or guild, either. These kind of things can be developed... I don't know, through RP? None of the other guilds seem to have a really hard time sitting down with people and explaining what life as an XXX is like, or what the purpose of them are. Even the layman guilds have some depth and history behind them. Shaolin can pour stories after stories of the philosophies and lifestyles and purposes of monks, and they're also often stuck with the tags of "purposeless", "hack-and-slashers" and "fence-sitters".

I'm sorry, but I don't see how player or troll killing is suddenly going to give a revelation of philosophy/background of Asral Warclerics. I think there's a lot more depth to the concept of Asral than "we stick a flag on your helmet, give you a weapon, and send you out to kill stuff for the sake of killing stuff". Where's the inner meaning behind it?

User avatar
stilgar
Champion
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:01 am
Location: Pecs, Hungary

Re: Group PvP

#40 Post by stilgar » Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:18 am

To Tessa: I was talking about PvP and killing things as I think this is what the word "war" is about, nevertheless feel free to go on with your thoughts :wink:


To Drake: Did not know about that, thanks for the info will try to figure out things then. (never had a real big Asral, might be time to try one?)
Last edited by stilgar on Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Future is NOT what it used to be

Pecs, European Capital of Culture 2010

Post Reply