News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still MUD-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

Message
Author
Delmon
Champion
Posts: 751
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: USA

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#21 Post by Delmon » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:47 pm

I don't know luminier.
I know I enjoyed the fighting system first before I stayed for the rp.

Cleansing the people who only here to hack and slash?
... Cleansing=bad for our limited playerbase. hack and slashers always might step up and roleplay

Grindel
Veteran
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:26 am

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#22 Post by Grindel » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:16 pm

Don't tell me the problem of geas is a horde of hacking and slashing newbs who refuse to roleplay and must be "cleansed"... With a shrinking playerbase you want to do the opposite than to scare newbies away.

Remember your first mud or first try on a new one: they enter without knowing the world or its ways and take alook, maybe try to learn the syntax. Finding a gremlin and loot it is the very first thing they do.
If at this point some taniel/crusader turns up and acts as... tactful as they use to, the newbie is gone.

isengoo
Champion
Posts: 828
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:38 pm

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#23 Post by isengoo » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:22 pm

Yeah, idealism is fine for roleplay purposes, but I really don't see how any real person could be so strict. Real people are easily swayed by many more factors than just a higher ideal.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#24 Post by luminier » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:29 pm

Usually when I see a newbie doing that, Ill simply say "Oh, I see you are stealing, Are you going to give that money to the poor? Yes? Oh ok. *continues patrolling*" Im certainly not -trying- to send anyone away, but I mean if they aren't prepared to try and work around it then well... I really don't know. Im not entirely sure how it effects noobies very much anyways. What do people loot on Elvandar land? Looting is still legal else where.

And when I was saying cleanse the people who don't roleplay, I was not necessarily just talking about noobies. But maybe that belongs in another thread then.

And besides, didn't the wizards say they were entirely concerned with the playerbase? Didn't they say they wanted to finish the game before advertising it to others? Im pretty sure I remember Abharsair saying exactly that.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

krelji
Hero
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 am

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#25 Post by krelji » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:54 pm

luminier wrote:And besides, didn't the wizards say they were entirely concerned with the playerbase? Didn't they say they wanted to finish the game before advertising it to others? Im pretty sure I remember Abharsair saying exactly that.
I'm not sure I remember him having said this in recent times. Would be nice if you
could provide us with a quote for that.
luminier wrote:Usually when I see a newbie doing that, Ill simply say "Oh, I see you are stealing, Are you going to give that money to the poor? Yes? Oh ok. *continues patrolling*" Im certainly not -trying- to send anyone away, but I mean if they aren't prepared to try and work around it then well... I really don't know. Im not entirely sure how it effects noobies very much anyways. What do people loot on Elvandar land? Looting is still legal else where.
It doesn't matter how you handle it, as others might handle it differently. Apart from
that all you'd have to do is to wait until they happen to enter Elvandar territory with
the loot. I'd prefer if newbies would be exempt from it - at least for a short while -
even if it's poor RP. I think it's just a small sacrifice in order to keep them happy.
All knowledge is heresy. Yes, you heard me correctly.
It is the nature of religions to thrive on ignorance.

User avatar
tessa
Overlord
Posts: 1093
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:03 am
Location: My own imagination.

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#26 Post by tessa » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:04 pm

Skimming through this thread, I'll just say a few things:

First, I don't think anyone needs to be convinced that this looting situation sucks. I'm pretty sure the only person that likes Tehanu's looting law is Tehanu (besides maybe 2 others that are supporting her decisions).

Second, it's an IC issue and needs to be treated ICly. Yes, you can debate/complain/voice thoughts all you want OOC, but in the end, it's going to take IC action to undo this, not OOC discussion. My suggestion is to raise these points (or perhaps rally action) in the game, rather than outside the game here where it'll have no impact to the IC situation.

We can say it's detrimental for newbies, though I'm unsure of a newbie that's chosen to quit playing over this looting thing instead of doing what most everyone else seems to be doing: lie about it, completely ignore Tehanu, or be sneaky about it.

krelji
Hero
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 am

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#27 Post by krelji » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:14 pm

tessa wrote:First, I don't think anyone needs to be convinced that this looting situation sucks. I'm pretty sure the only person that likes Tehanu's looting law is Tehanu (besides maybe 2 others that are supporting her decisions).
Actually my char welcomes it, though he still has a few issues with it. And no, my
char isn't among those who would support her decisions.
All knowledge is heresy. Yes, you heard me correctly.
It is the nature of religions to thrive on ignorance.

isengoo
Champion
Posts: 828
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:38 pm

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#28 Post by isengoo » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:05 am

As a newbie, I have quit over just this issue. Good day madam!

Furius
Newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:36 pm

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#29 Post by Furius » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:57 pm

I've weighed in elsewhere about my thoughts on the morality of looting, and I'll add that, OOCly, I think the rule makes pretty good sense. In real life, the practice of looting fell more and more into disuse as societies grew more civilized, and furthermore, I play this game not because it's the same as every other MUD, but because it's different.

In general, I think the arguments against looting have been pretty good, and the arguments in favor of it have been not so good, in that they are mostly straw man arguments. The ones I remember offhand tend to point out some absurdity in a position that the Judge and her supporters (as far as I can tell) don't actually hold, and while much of they say is technically true, I don't think it amounts to a very good argument. I won't say more here on the forums, and I hope I haven't said too much already.

In the end, I think this is a step toward addressing a shortcoming in most CRPGs, wherein it's possible to have a "lawful good" character actually behaving as chaotic neutral, and nobody, seemingly, really questions this. The alignment system in the computerized version of Neverwinter Nights, for example, allows a character to engage in a great deal of skullduggery, but he can still be a paladin if he chooses the obviously lawful good option from some limited range of hard-coded choices. At the end of the day, a computer has to give you some sort of "goodness" score and either add or subtract from this based on one's actions - and I would say that having a character exploit this, by definition, makes the character "neutral" along one axis or the other regardless of how the system is gamed to achieve the desired "goodness" score. Furthermore, a neutral character is forced to offset good/lawful actions with evil/chaotic actions to stay neutral, when in fact it tends to be a character's motivations that makes that character neutral, and not that character's actions - or looking at it another way, there is a big difference between "neutral good" and "chaotic evil in training", even though the scores may be identical. This is simply impossible to capture in code, and while I certainly realize that the sword cuts both ways, I think that a player-run legal system is overwhelmingly a good thing, especially to the extent that it address those things which cannot be coded.

Herst
Master
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:51 pm

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#30 Post by Herst » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:20 pm

I just wish all those people that think "Bah, this is so annoying" would revolt and burn someone at the stake.

Witch hunt!

Would be more entertaining than just complaining about it :roll: :twisted: :idea:

Nice smilies, I will make use of them.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#31 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:04 pm

It would be fun to see a people's revolt.
Burn the witch *cough*tehanu*cough* at the stake.
Or you know, run for judge, That works too. :mrgreen: :arrow: :?: :idea: :oops:
Meow

krelji
Hero
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 am

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#32 Post by krelji » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:10 pm

Herst wrote: and burn someone at the stake.
ganandorf wrote:Burn ... at the stake.
Guess we should start with you two ;)
All knowledge is heresy. Yes, you heard me correctly.
It is the nature of religions to thrive on ignorance.

Olrane
Champion
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:56 am
Location: Illinois

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#33 Post by Olrane » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:14 pm

ganandorf wrote:It would be fun to see a people's revolt.
Burn the witch *cough*tehanu*cough* at the stake.
Or you know, run for judge, That works too. :mrgreen: :arrow: :?: :idea: :oops:
Your subtlety is amusing.

Herst
Master
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:51 pm

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#34 Post by Herst » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:36 pm

Bah, not enough action with some silly political debate.

Elves, take up torches and burn your city down!

Well, since this thread was declared an IC issue to be settled IC, I thought I would just turn it to nonsense.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#35 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:40 pm

Herst and Ganon for cutest couple?
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#36 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:28 pm

Vote Herst and Ganon for cutest couple, I have to win something :P
Meow

krelji
Hero
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 am

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#37 Post by krelji » Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:54 pm

ganandorf wrote:Vote Herst and Ganon for cutest couple, I have to win something
You're going to win a dinner for two. I fear that you'll have to fight over who
of you two will be the main dish. ;)
All knowledge is heresy. Yes, you heard me correctly.
It is the nature of religions to thrive on ignorance.

ramandu
Professional
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:26 pm
Location: North Carolina, US

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#38 Post by ramandu » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:19 pm

I think the real issue here is how well or how poorly we are ALL role playing . . . newbies and veterans alike. Most people have never seen a dead body let alone KILL one . . . or then grub around in his/her/it's bloody pockets for coins that may or may not have blood all over them . . . or grab the hair of the freshly killed corpse while still warm and whack off it's scalp. Even in a fantasy world, the hack and slash world is one that is very apart from the world of the cities.

Also, why?
Why do so many go around dealing death. It is a gruesome business regardless of the God that one worships. The why is too often that one is "training" or "hunting." Perhaps the rules that Elvandor is enacting and have enacted are one of the few in game reminders of how far on the fringe of society the characters that we play would be.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

Olrane
Champion
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:56 am
Location: Illinois

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#39 Post by Olrane » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:33 pm

On the fringe? Possibly. The reason why so many people go around dealing death is because they fulfill a supported niche in society. The fact that Elvandar employs tons of mercenaries and bounty hunters to rid the land of the Queen's enemies (goblinoids etc.) says that scalping and all that goes along with it is considered in the very least a necessary evil.

I don't know if Elvandar is so very clean and enlightened either. It has its poor, its filth - it used to have a network of thieves under the city, in open defiance of the image of lawfulness that Elvandar is supposed to project. Elves can go ahead and act disgusted about the opportunists who rise to the occasion and go adventuring, but they can't deny that they help create them.

isengoo
Champion
Posts: 828
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:38 pm

Re: News item Looting Illegal..declares the Gvt of Elvandar

#40 Post by isengoo » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:11 pm

I thought this was a medieval MUD, not some highfalutin enlightened age everyone's smart and we know everything about everything MUD.

Post Reply