Crusaders
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- luminier
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Crusaders
There is something that has always bothered me about the Crusade and today I was speaking with Adanath about it OOC.
It seems to me that the Crusade is the only guild that cannot wear full guild armours without being restricted. Our helmet is plate so we can't flickup because of that one piece of plate, and if we ditch the helm and wear all chainmails replacing the plate helmet with a chain coif we still can't flick up.
Perhaps something could be changed so that our armour could be fully worn without the hinderance of not being able to flickup, should we decide to wear our "full armour".
Also while speaking with Adanath, I mentioned to him that it seemed a little silly to me that someone as massive and as strong as Adanath (who in the game is 10 feet tall and about triple Luminier's weight, even while wearing armours) can't flickup because of a plate helmet or some chainmail on his legs.
I realize we get other bonus's like with our weapons and mounts, but everyone else has an equal amount of bonuses it seems. I also know Abharsair said this isn't an equal oppurtunity MUD, but I think it is a fairly realistic MUD, and this armour issue just doesn't seem very realistic.
I was hoping I could get some comments on the matter.
It seems to me that the Crusade is the only guild that cannot wear full guild armours without being restricted. Our helmet is plate so we can't flickup because of that one piece of plate, and if we ditch the helm and wear all chainmails replacing the plate helmet with a chain coif we still can't flick up.
Perhaps something could be changed so that our armour could be fully worn without the hinderance of not being able to flickup, should we decide to wear our "full armour".
Also while speaking with Adanath, I mentioned to him that it seemed a little silly to me that someone as massive and as strong as Adanath (who in the game is 10 feet tall and about triple Luminier's weight, even while wearing armours) can't flickup because of a plate helmet or some chainmail on his legs.
I realize we get other bonus's like with our weapons and mounts, but everyone else has an equal amount of bonuses it seems. I also know Abharsair said this isn't an equal oppurtunity MUD, but I think it is a fairly realistic MUD, and this armour issue just doesn't seem very realistic.
I was hoping I could get some comments on the matter.
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- Delia
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Re: Crusaders
I'd be happy to see flickup being possible but with a nice penalty. Having it too easy with 'full armour' would kill other dynamics of the game, for example shaos would become extinct, dealing unarmed damage(specials) against full leathers is hard enough. Toppling the tortoise is usually the only way to fight and doing damage even then is...
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- Delia
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Re: Crusaders
But to add, as it is full armours are virtually unused because of the 'no-flickup' which is an essential survival tool. Should you fall down and be unable to flickup it can usually mean death or given the fast pace of PvP situations, being left out from the conflict completely.
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Re: Crusaders
I dont know about Crus armour at all, but I would guess there is a benefit to the guild helmet, like it protects really well against head and neck attacks. Besides, every guild should have some disadvantages.
- luminier
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Re: Crusaders
Before I begin, I would like to say thank you for the responses. I am not trying to start a big argument, but perhaps if a wizard comes along they will see that it would be decent if we could wear our whole outfit, and still be able to flickup.
For Delia, Im not saying make it easy, but getting very strong like Luminier or Adanath and having very high (100) acrobat isn't that easy to accomplish (I hope). And Crusaders have the armours they do so they aren't tortoises probably b/c of the fact they have to catch fast theives and such.
And you frequently make the comment that it is difficult to deal damage unarmed against an opponent, but isn't that what the wargloves are for? I was a shaolin that largely fought with a spear or wargloves and I never had trouble with either. Recently I fought Hsparks in a spar and only when he wore plate could I not punch through with wargloves. Personally I think the Shaolin are as good and balanced as any other guild and are quite the boon in many situations. (remembers just two shaolin with tackle and bodycheck taking on a troll, it was laughable)
If I chose to wear a helmet or leggings and not be able to flickup I could be easily killed without the assailant taking any damage at all, it's happened before at least twice in PvP and many more times in PvE. The difference between a light plate helmet and full plate battle armour are quite large, and so one should be able to flickup with just the helmet with a little penalty, but a penalty that makes sense and would take stats and skills into account.
As for Vurdijak, I would liken the lack of helmet and leggings to a Ranger wearing a leather hat or leather pants that give off light while they try to hide, it's quite the handicap in my opinion. I agree every guild should have their disadvantages and the Crusade has plenty. I remember a time when wearing full plate made no effect on the ability to flick up and since it was changed most Crusaders have had to change their armour around quite alot because of the plate helmet.
For Delia, Im not saying make it easy, but getting very strong like Luminier or Adanath and having very high (100) acrobat isn't that easy to accomplish (I hope). And Crusaders have the armours they do so they aren't tortoises probably b/c of the fact they have to catch fast theives and such.
And you frequently make the comment that it is difficult to deal damage unarmed against an opponent, but isn't that what the wargloves are for? I was a shaolin that largely fought with a spear or wargloves and I never had trouble with either. Recently I fought Hsparks in a spar and only when he wore plate could I not punch through with wargloves. Personally I think the Shaolin are as good and balanced as any other guild and are quite the boon in many situations. (remembers just two shaolin with tackle and bodycheck taking on a troll, it was laughable)
If I chose to wear a helmet or leggings and not be able to flickup I could be easily killed without the assailant taking any damage at all, it's happened before at least twice in PvP and many more times in PvE. The difference between a light plate helmet and full plate battle armour are quite large, and so one should be able to flickup with just the helmet with a little penalty, but a penalty that makes sense and would take stats and skills into account.
As for Vurdijak, I would liken the lack of helmet and leggings to a Ranger wearing a leather hat or leather pants that give off light while they try to hide, it's quite the handicap in my opinion. I agree every guild should have their disadvantages and the Crusade has plenty. I remember a time when wearing full plate made no effect on the ability to flick up and since it was changed most Crusaders have had to change their armour around quite alot because of the plate helmet.
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- Arwenth
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Re: Crusaders
While the idea I had wouldn't really help for solo situations but what about adding a skill that allows you to help assist an ally to stand? I'm not terribly sure how it would work or anything like that but it is an idea I had. About doing something about actually being able to flick up I would think that if a character checked against certain factors (I.E Strength, Agility, weight and height) combined with the total weight of their Armour and came out on top that they'd realistically be able to flick up or at least have the chance for it
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Re: Crusaders
While I could imagine an ally helping someone with standing up, I would expect it
to be very difficult, and leave 2 fighters in a vulnerable position instead of just one.
Apart from that I don't think that it's very realistic that those wearing metal armours,
and/or wearing large amounts of equipment on their person can use acrobatic
moves to stand up quickly during a fight. I think that metal armours restrict your
ability to move to some extend, and apart from that you would have to deal with a
changed center of mass. A seperate special might do the job, if it was faster than
standing up, and somewhat slower than flickup.
Generally I am being fine with flickup, but then I never played a char that was
wearing anything heavier than leather.
to be very difficult, and leave 2 fighters in a vulnerable position instead of just one.
Apart from that I don't think that it's very realistic that those wearing metal armours,
and/or wearing large amounts of equipment on their person can use acrobatic
moves to stand up quickly during a fight. I think that metal armours restrict your
ability to move to some extend, and apart from that you would have to deal with a
changed center of mass. A seperate special might do the job, if it was faster than
standing up, and somewhat slower than flickup.
Generally I am being fine with flickup, but then I never played a char that was
wearing anything heavier than leather.
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- Kaseo
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Re: Crusaders
I agree that a seperate special might work. Doesn't make you get up as fast as flickup does, but still faster than just rising normally. For plate-wearers so it's not such a disadvantage.
I see why plate would make it hard to flickup - weight and less movement - but yeah, just a helmet does seem a little odd. Unless it would throw off your balance, make you top heavy or something. Maybe if it could be changed for your strength, plate skill, maybe acrobat skill as well to determine if you can flickup. But maybe even then only for helmets, because body or leg plates might restrict mobility too much for that. I imagine plate gloves and boots may also restrict the kind of movement you'd need for that.
Iunno. I do agree with the seperate special though.
I see why plate would make it hard to flickup - weight and less movement - but yeah, just a helmet does seem a little odd. Unless it would throw off your balance, make you top heavy or something. Maybe if it could be changed for your strength, plate skill, maybe acrobat skill as well to determine if you can flickup. But maybe even then only for helmets, because body or leg plates might restrict mobility too much for that. I imagine plate gloves and boots may also restrict the kind of movement you'd need for that.
Iunno. I do agree with the seperate special though.
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- Delia
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Re: Crusaders
OR
acrobatic + armour skill + str + agi - armour penalties - overall enc and volume - damage & other distractions(and other circumstances not foreseen here)?
FOR
Calculating the time it takes to stand up without flickup
or somesuch...
As for wargloves, they do have their disadvantages, some of which are not so readily apparent but they sure help in getting the job done. I am not sure if they affect specials in anyway though, so a weapon and wargloves could be a wasted effort. Atleast that is my understanding, I might want to test this soon enough.
acrobatic + armour skill + str + agi - armour penalties - overall enc and volume - damage & other distractions(and other circumstances not foreseen here)?
FOR
Calculating the time it takes to stand up without flickup
or somesuch...
Actually only one shao will do, tackle and knee can also suffice. Yes, trolls are laughable for some. Shao's should be renamed the ultimate troll-slaying guildPersonally I think the Shaolin are as good and balanced as any other guild and are quite the boon in many situations. (remembers just two shaolin with tackle and bodycheck taking on a troll, it was laughable)
As for wargloves, they do have their disadvantages, some of which are not so readily apparent but they sure help in getting the job done. I am not sure if they affect specials in anyway though, so a weapon and wargloves could be a wasted effort. Atleast that is my understanding, I might want to test this soon enough.
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- luminier
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Re: Crusaders
I don't know about Arwenth's idea for a new skill for helping others stand, seems a little odd.
What I would like to see is a calculation similiar to what Delia said.
acrobatics + armour skills + str + agi - armour penalties - overall enc and volume - damage & other distractions and/or circumstances
FOR
Whether or not you can flickup with X armours.
As for the whole center of mass idea, it makes sense, but a coif is 1000 grams and a helmet is 1400 grams. Would a 400 gram difference be that large to a very strong human, or even a -very- strong tshahark? I think the amount of strength, acrobatics, agility, and the amount of skill you have with the armours should play a significant role in how mobile you are in an armour type.
It just really doesn't make sense to me that a monster like Adanath would be so adversely affected by some chain armours or an extra 400 grams on his head.
What I would like to see is a calculation similiar to what Delia said.
acrobatics + armour skills + str + agi - armour penalties - overall enc and volume - damage & other distractions and/or circumstances
FOR
Whether or not you can flickup with X armours.
As for the whole center of mass idea, it makes sense, but a coif is 1000 grams and a helmet is 1400 grams. Would a 400 gram difference be that large to a very strong human, or even a -very- strong tshahark? I think the amount of strength, acrobatics, agility, and the amount of skill you have with the armours should play a significant role in how mobile you are in an armour type.
It just really doesn't make sense to me that a monster like Adanath would be so adversely affected by some chain armours or an extra 400 grams on his head.
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- Kaseo
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Re: Crusaders
Oh, that is another point I forgot. Tshaharks are generally strong to begin with, and with the amount of training I'm sure a tshahark Crusader has gone through I'd imagine something like a plate helmet might seem like a leather hat for him. I'd think the tshaharks' unnatural strength might give him some kind of benefit like that.
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- Delia
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Re: Crusaders
Most evident advantages of plate armour are the 'knee', 'elbow' and 'headbutt' specials where good damage bonuses are allocated. I atleast recall headbutt being quite fearsome with its nice knockout rates.
As for the whole flickup thing, one could be having an acrobatics special, "tumble". One could roll back in the team formation when flickup is chancy or completely impossible. Obviously it should be easier than the whole flickup thing. On the downside it would not have any use other than while being in a team but it could be something atleast. Less useful for light armour characters but those with encumbrance and more armour it could be a lifesaver. I cannot see how it could be impossible with plate, only harder. Failures could be from openings to feint attacks, getting hurt from tumbling around, more time being down or even tumbling into a team member and toppling him/her also. With good skills one could possibly do both the tumble and flickup with one command and possibly be in a good, safe position after falling down. Perhaps even a 'toggle autotumble on/off'?
One obvious use would be managing to retreat from tackle/bodycheck combos where you are constantly kept on the ground and trying to dodge the fighter with a big sword. Tumble could have some other use as well for light armours such as a momentary dodge bonus and feint bonus from striking the flat-footed opponent. Perhaps even a bonus for escaping from a tight spot?
Just tossing in ideas.
As for the whole flickup thing, one could be having an acrobatics special, "tumble". One could roll back in the team formation when flickup is chancy or completely impossible. Obviously it should be easier than the whole flickup thing. On the downside it would not have any use other than while being in a team but it could be something atleast. Less useful for light armour characters but those with encumbrance and more armour it could be a lifesaver. I cannot see how it could be impossible with plate, only harder. Failures could be from openings to feint attacks, getting hurt from tumbling around, more time being down or even tumbling into a team member and toppling him/her also. With good skills one could possibly do both the tumble and flickup with one command and possibly be in a good, safe position after falling down. Perhaps even a 'toggle autotumble on/off'?
One obvious use would be managing to retreat from tackle/bodycheck combos where you are constantly kept on the ground and trying to dodge the fighter with a big sword. Tumble could have some other use as well for light armours such as a momentary dodge bonus and feint bonus from striking the flat-footed opponent. Perhaps even a bonus for escaping from a tight spot?
Just tossing in ideas.
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- luminier
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Re: Crusaders
I don't entirely understand Delias idea, but if I do, it sounds reasonable. But I still don't think we need a whole new skill, I think all that needs to be done is to rework the armour system.
I know that tshahark armours are actually bigger in proportion to human or dwarf armours so they would need just about as much strength as anyone else would need to use them effectively, or even flick up. Knowing that it should be relatively easy to create a baseline in which every race can start flicking up with..... full chains.... one piece of plate.... two pieces.... etc etc.
Wearing just one piece of plate makes you unable to flick up, this should be changed. It should be that if you meet flickup requirements based on strength, agility, armour skills, acrobatics, etc. that you can flickup no matter how much armour you wear. Using this system it should be theoretically impossible to flickup wearing full plate but if one met the requirements you technically could.
I know that tshahark armours are actually bigger in proportion to human or dwarf armours so they would need just about as much strength as anyone else would need to use them effectively, or even flick up. Knowing that it should be relatively easy to create a baseline in which every race can start flicking up with..... full chains.... one piece of plate.... two pieces.... etc etc.
Wearing just one piece of plate makes you unable to flick up, this should be changed. It should be that if you meet flickup requirements based on strength, agility, armour skills, acrobatics, etc. that you can flickup no matter how much armour you wear. Using this system it should be theoretically impossible to flickup wearing full plate but if one met the requirements you technically could.
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- Delia
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Re: Crusaders
It was just an elaboration on acrobactics skill --> tumble, not a full skill of its own. And for the record, there is a piece of 200 grams of plate armour that makes one unable to flickup. I'd say head armour should not be of such a big difference here, legs, torso and abdomen more so.
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- luminier
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Re: Crusaders
Really? I did not know of such an armour. I agree though, location of the armour should be one of the higher deciding factors, plate is fairly unforgiving in terms of movement I would think, but chain would certainly inhibit movement alot less in my view.
On the note of the tumble idea would it be something that works like if you have a high enough acrobatics skill you gain the ability to use "tumble"?
On the note of the tumble idea would it be something that works like if you have a high enough acrobatics skill you gain the ability to use "tumble"?
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- Delia
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Re: Crusaders
That was the thought.On the note of the tumble idea would it be something that works like if you have a high enough acrobatics skill you gain the ability to use "tumble"?
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- luminier
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Re: Crusaders
Ah I see, your intellect far surpasses mine.Delia wrote:That was the thought.On the note of the tumble idea would it be something that works like if you have a high enough acrobatics skill you gain the ability to use "tumble"?
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Re: Crusaders
Considering the difficulty of flicking up in just clothes, realistically flicking up in chainmail should be impossible. Along with platemail. No matter how much of it you wear.
- Delia
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Re: Crusaders
That pretty much decides it then. I'd still be interested in seeing some alternatives for flickup for the tortoises to use.
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I miss Nogem, the hard-headed human clad in Arborean steel even if everything would have been easier by removing some armour, he never left out a piece.
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- luminier
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Re: Crusaders
Are we talking real life, or the game? Perhaps flicking up in real life is hard, but it doesn't take a minute and a half to get up off the ground in real life either (it takes approximately 15 seconds to get up off the ground in the game, in chainmail or heavier armour, and 15 x 6 is 90 seconds). But flicking up in all leather is certainly not hard even with the base skill of acrobat (which i think is 25). Now I said the game was realistic, but obviously it can't emulate every bit of real life 1:1. Not having flickup would make wearing any armour unplayable essentially. As it stands right now most people who wear plate are a laugh to anyone who has a decent elbow skill.Lukav wrote:Considering the difficulty of flicking up in just clothes, realistically flicking up in chainmail should be impossible. Along with platemail. No matter how much of it you wear.
I agree with Delia. If it was meant to only flickup in leather armour or less because just wearing clothes makes flickup difficult, then I would definitely like to see some way of getting up off the ground that helps the armour wearers.
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