Forced conversion

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Desiderea
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Forced conversion

#1 Post by Desiderea » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:45 pm

Grr... I am disliking this. This is the second time I've been drawn away from my deity and lost stats because of it. Now, the first time, I really have no idea what I did. I just out of the blue started being drawn towards worshipping Zhakrin. (Perhaps I let my favour with Gwen fall too much?) This time, however, I was grouped with a Taniel cleric and had listened to him preaching. What I don't understand though is when I went back to Gwen's shrine, I was told that I was still a firm follower of Gwen, but I was still feeling drawn towards worshipping Taniel... And sacrificing did not help. So, despite my best efforts at staying faithful to Gwen, I still ended up worshipping Taniel. And I really don't know how I could have lowered my favour with Taniel while keeping faith with Gwen... apart from kicking some elves or something.

What I find distressing is that this seems to be telling me to avoid the clerics of other gods if I want to stay faithful to the one that I've chosen. But is there really a rp reason for me to avoid them? Taniel and Gwen get along fairly well, I believe. So why shouldn't I group with Tanielites? In order to avoid being converted, I would have had to say, "Sorry, I can't listen to you preach" and leave the room, which doesn't really make much sense either. It seems like unnecessary walking on eggshells in order to remain a follower of the god you've chosen.

Just reading some old threads about the issue, it seems that people are saying to rp out the deity change, but I find that hard because there really wasn’t much rp behind the faith change. I listened to a couple sermons... but just listening to them does not mean that I believe what is being said. My character should be able to take this information and decide for herself whether she feels more strongly for Taniel or not. I dislike the game telling me how my character should be rped.

I guess faith is something that I feel you should be able to choose, not have chosen for you. Your favour with certain gods may go up or down, but you should be able to choose whether you worship someone or not. And, if your favour falls too low, the god may reject you as a follower and then you would lose stats. But, it is frustrating when you are forced to switch faiths and you don't really want to, or really have a reason to.

If it stays as the system determining faith, would it be possible to make it so that favour rises more slowly for gods that you do not currently worship? Particularly if your faith in your current deity is strong, I would think it would be hard to draw you away to a different god. This might help eliminate unwanted conversions at least if you regularly sacrifice and do things to please your god, but happen to hear a sermon or help a priest of another god.

isengoo
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Re: Forced conversion

#2 Post by isengoo » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:16 pm

The whole point of rhetoric (preaching) is to convince someone else of something. I disagree with your sentiment, as the vast majority of people will believe things that are said to them by someone of authority (a priest, for example), especially if they are their friend.

Now, as for your character, they were obviously persuaded by this priest's extremely..persuasive..rhetorical skills and now your character agrees with them. What's the big deal? Yeah, losing stats isn't exactly fun, but they come back pretty quickly.

And to the point of the game telling you how to roleplay - that isn't true at all. Your character was persuaded by rhetoric. This happens all day every day in real life, why should it be different in game? Just roll with it and keep your options open.

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caelia
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Re: Forced conversion

#3 Post by caelia » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:45 pm

Game mechanics being what they are, you can only avoid the favour improve if you're not resting through the sermon, and this is the only way to say "I'll listen, because I don't mind hearing other ideas, but I'm not going to be persuaded by them."

I would not recommend calling attention to this. Every now and then I'll inform the crowd that I'm about to preach, and when I hear someone say "I'll stand, then" I get slightly annoyed. :)

It is possible to devote to multiple gods (or at least, certain combinations of them), but this requires having at least near-perfect favour with one of them, and some other hoop-jumping that I don't think I should mention here, because I don't think it amounts to very good RP.



My own take on the RPness of this is not completely unlike Isengoo's - I would usually say that your preferred god was displease by your listening to some other god's sermon when you hadn't paid enough attention to worshipping him/her. Codewise and RPwise, this is actually what happened - sometimes the code is more zealous than you feel your player should be, but it's about how much worship your god demands, and not simply waking up and saying "I'll keep following Gwen today."

Real-life theology has lots of really, really complicated and obscure points that laymen (and in some cases, even many scholars) aren't familiar with, and a good theologian arguing from some other viewpoint can sow an awful lot of doubt if you're not very very strong in your faith. This is the only way I can think of to account for forced conversions to Sathonys - while a good many characters would never worship him, if they should somehow end up with him as their preferred deity, I think the best way for them to RP it is to say that they were filled with some very serious doubts, and while they know there must be some way to resolve them, they don't yet know how. (I've gone through a major religion change in real life and in the game, and this is the perspective I bring to the code).

So, to the extent that you feel your code dictates your roleplay (and I hope I'm not belittling your concern, because I've been there, and it's not much fun, even if it's temporary), I think there is at least a plausible RP explanation for this - and you will bounce back from it in time.

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Re: Forced conversion

#4 Post by isengoo » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:07 am

I think it should be mentioned that this is not an equal opportunity MUD. If the code dictates your character is a certain way, then by golly, it's right. Now, a player can certainly do some things when playing which might guide their character down a certain path or another, but to be so devoted to a certain path on a character that you don't recognize that the code is telling you otherwise, I donno. It's not that the code is infallible or anything, but it does take into account almost everything, which a lot of people take for granted. You hang out with mostly Taniels and listen to their sermons? You are probably going to end up agreeing with them. My general advice - don't want your character to be a certain way? Don't act that way.

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rafael
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Re: Forced conversion

#5 Post by rafael » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:12 am

May I just add in passing that attempting to worship or "honor" more than one god is not really recommended.

PO R

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Delia
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Re: Forced conversion

#6 Post by Delia » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:46 am

Generally speaking it is preferrable to avoid religious groups if you do not want to convert. True, avoiding them is often not that sensible and it can be quite silly how you can ignore their magic mouths just by sitting on the ground.

Making offerings to your own god on a regular basis is a good deterrent for conversions.

Hanging out with your own religious group is a good deterrent for conversions too!

You WILL eventually be converted. Like it or not. It just happens.

Should you wish to play the favour game(NOT as in RP), you can ask the temple caretakers for miracles -> you'll lose favour with the god in question.

And it is not all that bad, you get a chance to try different things for a while. You can always go and convert back should you wish. Stats recover.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
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Desiderea
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Re: Forced conversion

#7 Post by Desiderea » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:10 am

Hm... mayhaps I will resign myself to being a Tanielite. I dunno, will have to see. I guess Desi is having doubts/feeling open-minded currently.

Just curious though, do certain actions like fighting orcs and goblins increase favour with Taniel, for instance? Does fighting in general decrease favour with Gwen? I've heard that only some of her followers are pacifists. But I was wondering if things like that are coded in, and how do we know what exactly pleases or displeases our god? Or is it best to figure those things out on our own?

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matusalem
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Re: Forced conversion

#8 Post by matusalem » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:56 am

The faith system in Geas, when one is unfamiliar with it, is exceedingly annoying; however, having become acclimated to it, I now think it's one of the better aspects of the game. Issues with "forced conversion" and the like come into play when one isn't familiar with how it works, but the fact of the matter is, it works very intuitively. Most other games, you pick your god like you pick your shirt, and no one can change your god anymore than they can change your shirt. Obviously, this isn't the case here. There are of course those cleric characters that like to preach without announcing it first or without explaining it to new players beforehand. Not much can be done about that; c'est la vie.

Those of one religion flock to others of the same religion. Just in Geas, as it is in real life, and there are many reasons why a Gwennite might theoretically avoid Tanielites. There have been in the past very legitimate and contentious differences between Tanielites and Evrenites. So just because you're "good guys" don't mean you cannot differ on theological ideals. Matusalem trusts Evrenites without question and likes them immediately, and he keeps clerics of other faiths at arm's length unless their character appeals to him on some other secular basis. So sure it's nice to have that Taniel cleric to hunt with, what with their healing miracles and the like, but that's not necessarily good RP is it?

Conversely, you will without question damage your favour with your deity should you team up with those of the opposing faith. Each deity, with the exception of Zhakrin, has an archenemy. Don't team with the followers of your deity's archenemy.

If you do want to worship two deities, one will always take precedence, and they must not be of opposing moralities. You cannot maintain favour with Evren and Asral. Gaining favour with one will lose favour with the other, since Evren is a "good" deity and Asral is a "wicked" deity, if only slightly.

It's also slightly more difficult, I have found, to worship a deity that doesn't have a player clergy. Sacrificing in the temples doesn't amass the favour that listening to sermons does. So if you want to worship Gwen, Evren, Zhakrin, or Lilith, you have to be even more staunch in your avoidance of other clergies and deities.

Really, in the grand scheme of your character's development, I know it sucks now, but it's really just a small bump due to learning the vastly different kind of gameplay Geas offers. Just my two cents.

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luminier
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Re: Forced conversion

#9 Post by luminier » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:27 pm

As a Crusader I constantly have to deal with the juggling of favour. A Crusader has to have good favour and karma with both Taniel and Evren (or at least they should). Karma isn't so hard because they are both good deities but favour is somewhat harder. There have been times where I have sacrificed to Evren just a little too much and needed to buy about 4 candles to devote and reverse this effect because I generally play when no Clerics are on to help with a Taniel sermon.

It's hard for newbies to get this juggling down. I know exactly what I have to do when a the favour game doesn't go my way of RP, but for a newbie it is somewhat more difficult.

To be honest I would like to see a greater diversity in the type of Gods each person follows, and so I would like it more (OOCly) if Desiderea was a Gwennite rather than you just giving up and saying oh well ill follow Taniel. What people have mentioned here is just good facts that you have to know to play the favour game. If you want to follow Gwen but you favour is higher with Taniel or Zhakrin, just ask their Clerics in their main temple for miracles and your Taniel or Zhakrin favour will fall and you Gwen Favour will remain whatever it was at (then you can have all the crazy fruit you want, interesting that when you eat it if you type vitals you are diseased :wink: ).
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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Sairina
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Re: Forced conversion

#10 Post by Sairina » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:44 am

Would make much more sense to be "intoxicated" by those fruit...

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luminier
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Re: Forced conversion

#11 Post by luminier » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:20 pm

Peace and love is a disease that must be thwarted. We warmongering, chaste warriors will live on!

Besides, we all know true love is for wussies.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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