Heavy Armours

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Moderator: Wizards

Why don't you use heavy armours?

Tires me out too quickly while walking.
15
15%
Tires me out too quickly while fighting.
8
8%
I'm too slow during combat.
20
21%
Doesn't offer enough protection.
13
13%
Not enough high-quality heavy armours available.
11
11%
Heavy Armor skill is too hard to learn.
3
3%
Can't use flickup.
22
23%
Can't use other specials.
5
5%
 
Total votes: 97

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Olrane
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Re: Heavy Armours

#21 Post by Olrane » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:41 pm

Skragna wrote:Moreso than guilded heavy armor and a heavy armor flickup equivalent, I'd like to see more different tail armors, or at least something we can do with 'em. Tailslap special maybe? One that's not skill-based, so as not to make it overpowered, but possibly useful (if you don't fall down, of course)
I remember one time there was an idea of allowing tshaharks to substitute the "knee" command for a tail slam command, with effectively the same skill.
I agree though, there should be another 'hark ideas thread; for all of the downsides to being a tshahark, brute strength alone isn't enough. Cool and unique things are warranted.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#22 Post by Skragna » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:05 am

Tail armor with a (possibly poisoned) sting or bludgeon would be interesting, possibly a blade. Could make the weaponized ones heavy armor, although the sting could probably be lighter. Tailslap as knee? I'd take that, for sure. I don't use knee a lot because I fall down, and then because I'm in heavy armor, I'm fish in a bucket.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#23 Post by lanyara » Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:07 am

for all of the downsides to being a tshahark, brute strength alone isn't enough.
- A unique lizard mount!!!

- A great and large castle with lottsa tshaharks NPCs!

But more seriously I agree, right now it seems as if you are a tshahark you are quite limited. Most active tshaharks seem to be crusaders, the others would tend to be less active.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#24 Post by gojin » Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:54 pm

Maybe im the minority but I like the way heavy armour is now. I like the way armour in geas is as a whole. I like that armour is a huge bonus in stand your ground and battle it out melee vs unarmoured. I like that heavy armour is hard to move around in. It has a level of realism lacking in other muds. You shouldnt be chasing people in heavy armours, folks in heavy armour shouldnt be able to flickup nor should they have a similar option. Heavy armour should offer you far better protection than anything else in melee combat.

Once while trying to pry some combat game mechanics from a wiz he told me to think of how it would work in real life and thats basically how it works in the game. Historically, heavy armour was primarily used by slow moving heavy infantry and by heavy cavalry. The second is where I think heavy armour's strength truly lies in Geas. I have an alt learning to use heavy arms right now and wonder why Cruxies dont use it more with their mounts.

Also, I've noticed lately people keep proposing new or buffed skills to cover weaknesses in others. Buffed iron will to make up for meditate possibly being changed, 'pushup' to make up for not being able to use flickup, etc. I rather like that not everything is perfectly balanced. It would be extremely bland imo if every style of playing were essentially able to do the same thing in the end. I know some dislike not being able to do everything possible with their chars, I was very much this way for the first 5 or so yrs of playing this game, but ive learned that if you learn to enjoy your weaknesses as much as your strengths you will have much more fun.

My 2cc.
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I have not failed. I've just found ten thousand ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison

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Re: Heavy Armours

#25 Post by ganandorf » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:00 pm

Well, here's another problem with heavy armour. Sure There are alot of defensive advantages to using it. But i think most people make their characters so that in the future they'll be well fit to joining a certain guild (most times its advantageous to use the armour the guild provides). Since no guilds use heavy armour, I bet many people neglect using it. I'm sure if there was a guild that used platemail, we would see more usage of it.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#26 Post by gojin » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:04 pm

ganandorf wrote:Well, here's another problem with heavy armour. Sure There are alot of defensive advantages to using it. But i think most people make their characters so that in the future they'll be well fit to joining a certain guild (most times its advantageous to use the armour the guild provides). Since no guilds use heavy armour, I bet many people neglect using it. I'm sure if there was a guild that used platemail, we would see more usage of it.
Granted ive been away from these forums for awhile but I believe this is the first time ive ever agreed with PO Ganon on anything he has ever said... ever. I feel closer to you Gans.
Did you ever notice that people who believe in creationism look really un-evolved? - Bill Hicks
I have not failed. I've just found ten thousand ways that won't work. - Thomas Edison

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Re: Heavy Armours

#27 Post by ganandorf » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:30 pm

Yeah, most of the time my opinions are out of the blue, completely random, and i barely manage to put them into coherent thought. Sometimes, once every 1000 years, I emerge from the shadows and post something that makes sense, I go back into hiding afterwards. See you guys in 1000.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#28 Post by lanyara » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:37 pm

I feel closer to you Gans.
Finally @Gojin to the dark side!

I think it may also be that there aren't that many "heavy armours" in total? I mean, not only that guilds avoid these (as they usually stick to chain or leather).

But how many heavy armours are actually available so that they can be used? In Arborea you can buy them... then there are those shiny Arborean armours (with the drawback that the guards don't like it if you use these) ... then perhaps coat of arms ...

Similar situation with monsters. Most monsters are like naked/fur covered, or use light armour up to usually chain armour (except for some nasty undeads perhaps wielding twohanders and heavy armour)

Oh... just a random idea here. If your char wears a shield you have a chance to deflect an arrow. Perhaps a tiny chance to have this apply for full plate armour as well could provide another incentive here? Just an idea.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#29 Post by ganandorf » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:49 pm

I thought plate armour worn anywhere had the ability to deflect arrows?

But I really dont think its the number of heavy armours available. I mean think of how much non-guild chainmail there is, and how many characters wear the non-guild chainmail. Most of the time they're only wearing it until they join another guild. At which point they'll switch to the guild chain armours.

More types of heavy armour won't do much in my opinion, A heavy armour guild would do more of a difference. Plus this could go together well with the other thread about tshahark weaknesses. Tshaharks usually join the crusaders because it is the ONLY (two if you include the order, I dont consider it a realistic possibility) guild that plays on their racial strengths. A guild that uses heavy armours would also most likely use heavy weapons.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#30 Post by luminier » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:16 pm

I could draw up some plans for a heavy armour guild if people wanted. I had some already. It's basically another fighting guild though, but with a more -interesting- purpose I think.

originally i wanted it to be a guild where there were multiple types of armours to wear, leathers to heavies, but if the cry for heavy armour is out there, i suppose i could bite the bullet and forget my desc's about light and medium.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#31 Post by ganandorf » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:09 pm

Before thinking of new guilds (which might be alot of work to code) there might be a few other ways to promote plate use:

Mainly, adding the platemail option to certain guilds. It would make sense with certain warrior guilds such as the asrals and the crusaders. Giving up flickup for better protection, when you're tanking It could prove useful.

I'm not sure if it will help. But other types of available platemail might do something. All that comes to mind right now is two types the plain iron and the bone plate, more types might promote usage of the heavier armour.

That's my opinion, but remember the intelligent me is still gone for 1000 years
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Re: Heavy Armours

#32 Post by luminier » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:57 pm

To Ganon

Probably it would take a while. But any solution would take time. Best to not shoot them down solely because of that. There should be a fighter group that isn't hard tied to religion, or being just neutral completely I think.

To Gojin

It's fine to embrace weaknesses, but, IMO doesn't that mean finding some way to overcome them? Eventually everyone is going to have their own way of overcoming it be that if iron will is changed or some other way. I think the diversity is what makes it interesting and in turn, fun that way. Making some people at a distinct disadvantage will just make players shy away from that choice.

Also on a mount you can pretty much wear anything because it's rarely ever the rider getting attacked. It's much easier to make the mount bleed and force the rider to leave than it is to attack the mounted rider. This kind of negates the idea of making yourself even slower to attack while wearing plate while mounted .... this is coming from someone who has used a mount in literally ever possible situation and knows most if not all of what they can do.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#33 Post by gojin » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:21 pm

luminier wrote: To Gojin

It's fine to embrace weaknesses, but, IMO doesn't that mean finding some way to overcome them? Eventually everyone is going to have their own way of overcoming it be that if iron will is changed or some other way. I think the diversity is what makes it interesting and in turn, fun that way. Making some people at a distinct disadvantage will just make players shy away from that choice.
My point was exactly that diversity makes things interesting and fun. Imo, giving every playing style a super fast healing/energy skill makes things more alike instead of diverse regardless if they are cosmetically different. Plus, I rather like the idea of non-meditate users relying on potions. Just my opinion.
luminier wrote: Also on a mount you can pretty much wear anything because it's rarely ever the rider getting attacked. It's much easier to make the mount bleed and force the rider to leave than it is to attack the mounted rider. This kind of negates the idea of making yourself even slower to attack while wearing plate while mounted .... this is coming from someone who has used a mount in literally ever possible situation and knows most if not all of what they can do.
This is unfortunately true. Ive always wished that horses could be ressurected somehow. Not sure how its been for the crusade and their unicorns but it always pissed me off OOC when during PVP the opposing player would target the animal even when Id dismount and it wasnt attacking. Buying and training an animal only to have it killed sucks and its used to make players flee to protect their horses when you target them. Of course ever the hypocrit i am guilty of this myself.

Id like to see mounted combat be a more viable option. If horses were not so vulnerable to death do you think more folk would ride them while wearing plate? What if instead of actively participating in combat(hoof, hoof, bite) they simply provided you the same boni and perhaps a trample special? Would players be less inclined to attack them? Not sure, and this has strayed off the topic of the thread so ill stop now.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#34 Post by lanyara » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:51 pm

Oh... can one buy tower shields by the way? Would these count as heavy armour?
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Re: Heavy Armours

#35 Post by isengoo » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:24 pm

I remember the Legion had tower shields.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#36 Post by gojin » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:50 pm

I was under the impression that all shields were heavy armour.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#37 Post by isengoo » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:59 pm

I know the Taniel shield is technically scale, which is kind of annoying.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#38 Post by luminier » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:03 pm

I think all shields are the type 'shield' and that counts a heavy armour. But the Taniel one I guess is scale, im assuming the Sathonite shield is bone, and every other shield unless it is wood, is plate.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#39 Post by ganandorf » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:56 pm

All shields count as scale or plate armour.
But they do not all count as heavy armour. Not sure if it depends on your strength or not. But the round iron-plated shield for me is usually heavy, the round wooden is usually medium. and the guild shields are medium as well.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#40 Post by lanyara » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:51 pm

I just had an idea, concerning the no-flickup. (And so far I think the suggestions range from team members aiding you to stand up, or push up leading to exhaustion but a faster stand up ...)

How about the time of standing up ("You sit up") is adjusted slightly by your heavy armour skill? I don't know the delay, but let's say it is 6 or 8 seconds, and with a very high heavy armour skill you could put that down to like 4 or 6 seconds or similar? Just so that there is a small difference between someone with heavy armour +80 and someone with heavy armour skill 40.

Another suggestion of course could be to allow a flickup (instead of hardcoding to prevent this move), but at a big price to pay (fatigue, exhaustion, higher chance to fail etc.. etc.. )

If you don't like the "flickup" message while standing up, in this case it could simply be a different message, after a i.e. 2 seconds delay for the "stand up action".

And a message like:

"HEAVILY_ARMOURED guy tries to stand up as quickly as possible, using his hands to push himself to his feet."

Oh, by the way ... even though this might be overpowered, but since the thread title suggested ideas in how to make heavy armours more popular (or the poll at least tried to):

- How about that heavy armours protect a bit more from certain special attacks? Let's say elbow of your dwarf opponent with high strength has a 20% chance to pull you to the ground if you wear no armours, but if you wear heavy armours like a heavy platemail and he hits that platemail, the chance to go to the ground goes down to 15%? Anyway, just adding more ideas here ... :D
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