Heavy Armours

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Moderator: Wizards

Why don't you use heavy armours?

Tires me out too quickly while walking.
15
15%
Tires me out too quickly while fighting.
8
8%
I'm too slow during combat.
20
21%
Doesn't offer enough protection.
13
13%
Not enough high-quality heavy armours available.
11
11%
Heavy Armor skill is too hard to learn.
3
3%
Can't use flickup.
22
23%
Can't use other specials.
5
5%
 
Total votes: 97

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matusalem
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Re: Heavy Armours

#61 Post by matusalem » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:42 pm

It's been said that English long bows could fire an arrow through a piece of leg armour, out the other end, then into the knight's horse, thus leaving him pinned. Just saying.

isengoo
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Re: Heavy Armours

#62 Post by isengoo » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:45 pm

It's been said halflings should stay inside their cubbies and make pie :P

Skragna
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Re: Heavy Armours

#63 Post by Skragna » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:02 pm

I seriously doubt a longbow could pierce late era plate mail. The invention of the crossbow doomed the mounted knight, to be honest. And if I got them from Xuchal, they wouldn't be holy stuff blessed by the Lord and Lady!

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luminier
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Re: Heavy Armours

#64 Post by luminier » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:32 pm

the English long bow had some ridiculous kind of draw power. I know that they recovered some long bows from a ship called the Mary Rose and those bows had a draw power of like 150 pounds. For reference it could send the average arrow something like 400 yards?

I remember my dad telling me that their arms would actually get messed up for pulling such a weight all the time from the copious amount of practice they did.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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matusalem
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Re: Heavy Armours

#65 Post by matusalem » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:42 pm

The English longbow was actually much more powerful than any crossbow. The benefit of the crossbow is that the archer didn't have draw and hold the bow back as he aimed, which is extremely tiring and requires a lot of upper body strength. The crossbow merely made it easier to shoot rather than shoot better.

Skragna
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Re: Heavy Armours

#66 Post by Skragna » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:43 pm

Yeah, 150 lbs. draw, and the maximum range is usually about 500 yards. But at that range, it's just going to bounce off. A crossbow has a much shorter range, but has much more power within that range.

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luminier
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Re: Heavy Armours

#67 Post by luminier » Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:05 am

if you can shoot accurately multiple football fields away, enter a competition.

i don't think the goal was to shoot people 500 yards away, but it was a goal to shot them 220 yards ish away and that might not penetrate plate, but at the range of crossbows definitely the longbow could pierce plate
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Urlyth
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Re: Heavy Armours

#68 Post by Urlyth » Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:19 am

How would he fit his tail in that?

Also an ugly thought... if he sneezed inside that head piece then that tongue is flicking in and out .... /me shudders at the mental images. :P

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Re: Heavy Armours

#69 Post by Zehren » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:00 am

Since this has more or less turned into a discussion about arrows; I hereth present thee with: Bows and arrows and their intended use of 500 yards.
I also present ye with my superior abilities of paint. :mrgreen:

Click for poZehren-made comic.

As for whether arrows fired from longbows can protrude throught platemail:
Quickly, make haste and adorn your mithil plate!
Since...
Mithril wasn't in proper use...
During English longbow time?
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

lanyara
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Re: Heavy Armours

#70 Post by lanyara » Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:22 am

Xuchal could offer especially well crafted tail platemail for halflings.

This could be the time of the platelings and plateharks.

PS: Is that comic like http://xkcd.com/ for Geas ... :P
Best race: halflings.

Zehren
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Re: Heavy Armours

#71 Post by Zehren » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:42 am

lanyara wrote:Xuchal could offer especially well crafted tail platemail for halflings.

This could be the time of the platelings and plateharks.

PS: Is that comic like http://xkcd.com/ for Geas ... :P
The people in my comic actually have faces. :mrgreen:

Tail platemail for halflings? To protect one's rear from arrows?
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

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arxthas
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Re: Heavy Armours

#72 Post by arxthas » Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:49 am

Sorry, but I really wanted to discuss armours..
lanyara wrote:The "non-equal opportunities" is ok, but people will still use what is more effective :D or play an "easier route", but in my opinion right now being denied flickup (and hence a fast escape) due to heavy armours is a problem for any PvP situation.
Then I think "people" are cheating by not roleplaying their characters. It's just powergaming, plain and simple, picking whatever is "strongest" and avoiding any penatlies. It does not belong in an RP-enforced MUD.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#73 Post by adanath » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:42 am

yes and no. In a realistic situation if a warrior knows he has the need to get away and knows in turn he cannot do it with certain types of armour then it makes sense for him to craft his armours around his style of fighting, what'ere that may be.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#74 Post by ganandorf » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:48 am

Who says you can't roleplay based on OOC decisions?
Meow

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arxthas
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Re: Heavy Armours

#75 Post by arxthas » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:57 am

I agree. But I think it sucks that for example people use those armours just because it's best. I think there is a difference between picking an armour because your character thinks it is better and because you try to "win". I really doubt that all characters drew the same conclusion like "oh this heavy armour sucks because I can't flickup".

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Re: Heavy Armours

#76 Post by lanyara » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:32 am

It does not belong in an RP-enforced MUD.
Agreed. But it is not easy to change. Certain strategies are simply more effective than others. Anyone who participated in some kind of difficult conflicts (team PvP, especially against Sathos with revenants) know that participants will often use what is more effective. One example is changing armours to be more efficient, like faster dishing out damage, and so on. Or being faster. Or more skilled ... there are many examples. :D

Dropping backpacks or heavy items is another example. You can be faster, you can probably parry better, use missile more efficiently, and so on and so forth. Players will always try to maximize what is being given to them. Unless you have really very good roleplayers who don't care about this (I am unfortunately not one of these really) and stick to what makes a lot of sense to have and fitting to the character.
I really doubt that all characters drew the same conclusion like "oh this heavy armour sucks because I can't flickup".
Perhaps not in-game, but I had situations where critical hits caused a falldown event (i.e. hitting on your legs, and your char falls down), and you can't flickup and are stuck with the slow standup action due to wearing a platemail or battle-armour. And the character died soon after that hmm ...

Perhaps the character would not have died if he could have tried to flickup? At least if he would have had that possibility he could have stood up quickly and ran out to aid. Couldn't test it as the char bleed to death. Which is then also not so much fun, recovering equipment sometimes also means dying again, then you have to recover from vit loss and so on and so forth.
The tradeoff doesn't seem to be right. If I use slightly worse armour I could still try to flickup. And I would at least avoid those opponents who would quickly be able to kill me. Or perhaps next time, I wear a shield ... or this or that.

Btw just to clarify it, I agree with @Arxthas.
Best race: halflings.

Zehren
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Re: Heavy Armours

#77 Post by Zehren » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:12 am

lanyara wrote: Dropping backpacks or heavy items is another example. You can be faster, you can probably parry better, use missile more efficiently, and so on and so forth. Players will always try to maximize what is being given to them. Unless you have really very good roleplayers who don't care about this (I am unfortunately not one of these really) and stick to what makes a lot of sense to have and fitting to the character.
I think this makes sense.

You're a small halfling, with your sturdy backpack and bow. You spot an enemy, and silently remove your backpack and stash it behind a bush. Or simply drop it some paces away. You then sneakily approach your enemy, with your bow loaded;and... *Swoosh* *boing* Your enemy dies of an arrow to the head.

I also think the opposite makes sense.

You're a small halfling (same scenario,) with your sturdy backpack and bow. You spot an enemy, and consider putting away your backpack so you can move more freely. As you think you have made up your mind, doubt suddenly urges through your head. What if someone decided to borrow your backpack? You need what's in it for later. No, backpack stays on. You load your bow, approach your enemy and... *swoosh* *tuck* Your enemy is unable to wield his dagger, due to the arrow protruding through his hand. You quickly drop your bow, draw your knives and leap forward...


Both courses makes sense to me, at least. Not carrying many items when you need mobility does make sense IC. At least I would not want to carry thirty kilograms of stuff on my back while fighting some nasty monster with death as a possible outcome.

Heavy armours vs. medium armours seems a case of protection vs. mobility.
If you already can stand hits, it makes sense to perhaps opt for mobility so you can run away if things go awry.
If you already can stand hits, it might make sense to protect yourself fully and go "Eh? Ogre? Club? Me platemail'll hold, ye giant bastard!" *waggle in with raised warhammer and aim for groin*.
If you cannot stand hits, it might make sense to don platemail. "Perhaps I may now finally stand long enough in battle to successfully better myself... It is hard to better one's fighting in but the usual three seconds it takes for me to get wounded."
And... If you cannot stand hits, it makes sense to be as mobile as possible. It doesn't matter you'd take losses if hit; you won't be hit.

All four options *can* make sense ICly.
I think making platemail protect a tad bit more wouldn't hurt either, though.

Oh, and the only reason no one wears heavy armour is since they're afraid of having to fight; they wear lighter armour so they can quickly flee. :mrgreen:
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Re: Heavy Armours

#78 Post by ganandorf » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:22 pm

arxthas wrote:I agree. But I think it sucks that for example people use those armours just because it's best. I think there is a difference between picking an armour because your character thinks it is better and because you try to "win". I really doubt that all characters drew the same conclusion like "oh this heavy armour sucks because I can't flickup".
I think wearing a certain type of armour because it is best is completely fine. Imagine you were your character, would you wear chainmail, pretty light, versatile, easy to maneuver in, or plate mail, heavy as hell, hard to move around in, if you get knocked down your like a helpless turtle. Your character isnt retarded, they're able to figure out which armours are best and which weapons are best. OOC you choose which armour is best for your character. IC your character chooses which armour is best for them. Why would you "roleplay" using plate armour, when medium armour would be better for you to fight in, which most characters want, they roleplay wanting to become better fighters, hell half the game revolves around being the best fighter you can be.
Meow

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Re: Heavy Armours

#79 Post by adanath » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:59 pm

I just don't understand this. The other day I wasn't in my normal armours, I was in heavier ones..and very afkish..I ran into a satho and he kept casting earthquake and broke my leg..granted he couldn't do hardly any damage, and it was rather easy to not get hurt by him hardly at all, however Adanath quickly as dumb as he is realized, if he can't get up fast he can't swing the lance fast at his opponents head and bash him. Pretty simple ic reason to try and find armours in which he is both mobile and well protected in.

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arxthas
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Re: Heavy Armours

#80 Post by arxthas » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:14 pm

ganandorf wrote:I think wearing a certain type of armour because it is best is completely fine.
... which is the same as saying that minmaxing is OK. That is not roleplay.. It's naturally OK if single characters from time to time make perfect decisions and so. But looking at a larger population, we would expect many bad choices by different people. So, if the problem here is that almost nobody chooses a something perceived as an inferior armour, then I'm saying that people are minmaxing.
ganandorf wrote:Imagine you were your character, would you wear chainmail, pretty light, versatile, easy to maneuver in, or plate mail, heavy as hell, hard to move around in, if you get knocked down your like a helpless turtle. Your character isnt retarded, they're able to figure out which armours are best and which weapons are best.
That is true to some extent. But for example,
1. It's not always true that the character would even reflect about it
2. The character might have different type of flaws which prevents them from assessing the decision correctly
3. Even with a correct decision, they might decide to go for the other armour on intuition, fear, or whatever it might be.
4. There are good RP reasons to not like that in general. Playing out flaws, weakness or social conflicts usually enrichens the world and the opposite doesn't.
ganandorf wrote:OOC you choose which armour is best for your character.
I don't know what you mean with that one. Your character chooses his equipment..
ganandorf wrote:Why would you "roleplay" using plate armour, when medium armour would be better for you to fight in, which most characters want, they roleplay wanting to become better fighters, hell half the game revolves around being the best fighter you can be.
It is true that much of what the game provides is combat-related. That does not mean the game revolves around becoming the best fighter you can be. I think it is totally OK of course to play a character who wants to be a warrior and improve in it - nothing wrong there. If you take decision that you perceive OOC as the best ones all the time though whether it comes to armour, skills or whatever, then you have created a kind of "superman" character which IMHO adds nothing to the game.

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