Heavy Armours

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Why don't you use heavy armours?

Tires me out too quickly while walking.
15
15%
Tires me out too quickly while fighting.
8
8%
I'm too slow during combat.
20
21%
Doesn't offer enough protection.
13
13%
Not enough high-quality heavy armours available.
11
11%
Heavy Armor skill is too hard to learn.
3
3%
Can't use flickup.
22
23%
Can't use other specials.
5
5%
 
Total votes: 97

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luminier
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Re: Heavy Armours

#81 Post by luminier » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:57 pm

Well if we are going to play "this" kind of game, I already have the perfect solution. Luminier has died plenty of times and realized what is effective in combat and what is not. He doesn't wish to restrict himself so he can die in combat and force himself to ask Taniel for a new body.

I ordered all the Crusaders, in turn, to find armours in which they can still get up quickly and retreat, but, also left it open to them if they wanted to change up their armour for more protection. Don't know if the newer Crusaders remember it, but Arwenth, Angeal, Furius etc should all know/remember.
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caelia
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Re: Heavy Armours

#82 Post by caelia » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:07 am

Caelia may be a more ideal candidate for plate than most, but I think it is quite fair for her to consider the incremental cost of acquiring plate armour which is better than her Cleric chains (i.e., custom mithril plate, really - at dozens of hours of effort and hundreds of gold coins, plus months of waiting time for the construction of each piece, and the possible agony of having to do this all over again if it gets lost), compared to the incremental protection it would offer (i.e., not much), and deciding that it just isn't worth it.

More generally, I don't see even the slightest problem with having Caelia or anyone else analysing the trade-offs between one set of armour or another, and choose the one that fits her optimization criteria the best. Absolutely every combatant on the planet Earth has done this at some point, and imaginary ones should be allowed to do so also. Especially in the case of guilds, there is plenty of IC discussion about which armour configurations work and which don't, and it would be extremely silly for a character to simply ignore this because of some notion that more people should be wearing plate - which, to me, is the more serious imposition of OOC opinions on role-play choices.

If you're into historical analogues, we're at a point in Geas history where the mobility lost by wearing plate does not quite offset the protection gained. There were various points in history when soldiers wore chain and not plate, based on available materials, level of metalworking knowledge, input costs, and so on. If plate "technology" improves in-game, we'll see more of it. Simple.


What poArxthas seems to be saying is that plate is "better" (which again, I regard as the very imposition of OOC ideas into the game that he warns us against), and that wearing it despite its IC disadvantages is somehow good roleplay. This is nonsense - the mechanics of Geas are entirely different from the middle ages, where there were no mithril/magical weapons or miracles to go up against, as neither of these are kind to armour. There is a lot of fighting going on, and a lot of accumulated (available IC) knowledge about works and what doesn't - and whatever flaws a character might possess, most should be expected to have an aversion to death, and presumably they would ask around to see whether some armour configuration is a good idea or a stunningly poor one, before trusting their lives to it. Otherwise they suffer from something which would be rightfully called "excessive pride", and history is not kind to soldiers suffering from this.

Chain is by no means a winning solution, too, even if it is a popular choice and a generally good solution to the various tradeoffs that armour-wearers face. It does leave a few areas of the body rather poorly protected - or in other words, people who wear chain are already doing exactly what poArxthas wants us all to do anyway - to make a choice we know OOCly to be suboptimal in some regard (i.e., the hands are hard to protect with chain armour) for RP reasons (characters for the most part don't want to die). Problem solved. :)

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Re: Heavy Armours

#83 Post by arxthas » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:01 am

Many misunderstandings of what I've just said...
caelia wrote:Caelia may be a more ideal candidate for plate than most, but I think it is quite fair for her to consider the incremental cost of acquiring plate armour which is better than her Cleric chains (i.e., custom mithril plate, really - at dozens of hours of effort and hundreds of gold coins, plus months of waiting time for the construction of each piece, and the possible agony of having to do this all over again if it gets lost), compared to the incremental protection it would offer (i.e., not much), and deciding that it just isn't worth it.
Since you bring up your own character as example... I think it might sound like a lot to lose if you consider the effort the player needs to put in. But for the character? I would not excluse the possibility that it is a good trade. But then again it has to do with her goals. It sounds more like an OOC decision to me, but if you say it I believe you. It's not like you can not make up an excuse for any decision your character takes which IMHO sucks since it's not RP.. and I think also it might simply be that Caelia really fits to make such a decision. Bringing up a single character in a single case for a single decision in order to to show that in general characters are not taking the easiest route to any decision is not even logical.. I did not have Caelia specifically in mind.. or any other character for that part. Or perhaps you answered someone else..
caelia wrote:More generally, I don't see even the slightest problem with having Caelia or anyone else analysing the trade-offs between one set of armour or another, and choose the one that fits her optimization criteria the best. Absolutely every combatant on the planet Earth has done this at some point, and imaginary ones should be allowed to do so also. Especially in the case of guilds, there is plenty of IC discussion about which armour configurations work and which don't, and it would be extremely silly for a character to simply ignore this because of some notion that more people should be wearing plate - which, to me, is the more serious imposition of OOC opinions on role-play choices.
Me neither. I actually said exactly that myself...
caelia wrote:What poArxthas seems to be saying is that plate is "better" (which again, I regard as the very imposition of OOC ideas into the game that he warns us against), and that wearing it despite its IC disadvantages is somehow good roleplay.
I am not saying that plate is better. I don't know where you get that from. I think I said that it's about what is perceived and what the intentions are, not the actual or consequences. In fact I would say that plate is pretty good in many situations. But I don't know the ultimate answer to which actually is "best" or if you could even analyse that. It most likely depend on your goal and what situation you are in so the notion of as you say that plate is "better" sounds silly.

I am also not saying that wearing armours you think are worse is good roleplay just for the heck of it. Again, you missed my point. But if you made a character who are unable to do so or is of the nature that they don't always make perfect choices, you might end up with that. I consider it bad roleplay to always make the best choices.
caelia wrote:It does leave a few areas of the body rather poorly protected - or in other words, people who wear chain are already doing exactly what poArxthas wants us all to do anyway - to make a choice we know OOCly to be suboptimal in some regard (i.e., the hands are hard to protect with chain armour) for RP reasons (characters for the most part don't want to die). Problem solved. :)
I don't want anyone to "do anything". People are free to play their characters as they want! And making a decision that is suboptimal in some regard wouldn't be the point anyway. All options have their pros and cons. What mattered would be the total trade-off. It's not a bad choice if the overall is the best outcome. Like someone said, the little extra protection is lost but the flickup is gained which could be a total plus depending on situation (could be a true statement). On the other hand, I do think it's best if characters make human errors.. beautiful, strong, super robot-like warriors are always boring.

Anyway, I think I'm seriously outnumbered here. I'm totally fine with the opposite!

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Re: Heavy Armours

#84 Post by lanyara » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 am

I consider it bad roleplay to always make the best choices.
One should separate decisions made by characters from the way the code supports or discourages certain strategies.

There are players who solely stick to how the character percieves something, and there are players who will excel in maximizing what is given to them, and there are players who combine both. It is not bad or good roleplay per se. One also shouldn't forget that a game should be about fun, or enjoying it.

What @Luminier wrote is a pretty good example of the latter:
Luminier has died plenty of times and realized what is effective in combat and what is not. He doesn't wish to restrict himself so he can die in combat and force himself to ask Taniel for a new body.
I don't think one can expect to stick to using strategies which would be less effective per se. I also don't think @Luminier or anyone else would enjoy having the character die again and again just because choices done were bad to have and the character would be unable to "adapt" to it.

For me so far the experience was that being unable to flickup does not really seem to be worth to really use heavy armours, or enjoy the added protection from it. This is an OOC opinion I have here. (ICly I wouldn't even know a reason why Lanyara would wear a platemail anyway.) They just seem less useful compared to lighter armours.
What mattered would be the total trade-off.
I agree, the system will encourage one to pick strategies which are better or
which could be taken as "what is best".

Whether one calls that as "winning the MUD", or just excelling at what is given to you ... or calling it a smart playing style. Whatever. ;-)

Being grounded is really bad in any PvP or PvM when opponents can deal a lot of damage, and you can't escape nor can do hit on your own. It's a downtime.
This is also not solely confined to heavy armours by the way. The Isengorn vs. Dragan log is a good example where Dragan probably couldn't flickup easily anymore due to the broken leg. Knee vs. elbow is another example - elbow doesn't seem to have any real tradeoff nor requirement to use a weapon or shield (unlike slam and shieldbash), but knee means you have a chance to fall down. And if you knee someone and wear heavy armours, and then fall to the ground, things can be difficult when you have to escape quickly, especially for smaller and weaker characters (or untrained/less skilled ones).
On the other hand, I do think it's best if characters make human errors.. beautiful, strong, super robot-like warriors are always boring.
I agree.

But one should also not forget the other side here, as @Luminier wrote, because would everyone willingly pick what is less effective especially if picking these choices could mean that your character dies more regularly again and again and again?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about acting in line to the character or "fitting" to the character, but I can also absolutely understand every player who wants to see what they do is meaningful and useful.

The tradeoff between heavy armours and medium armours seem to speak in favour of medium armours right now. At least that was my perception so far, or whether it is the "fast escape" route ...

Heavy armours seem to be heavier, tire you out more quickly, are harder to get than chain/leather stuff as well, remove flickup and so on and so forth.

Their usage scenario seems more limited. And in the use cases where they are probably better anyway, it seems far easier to redress specifically to adapt to such a situation.

I am sure if the tradeoff gap between medium and heavy armours wouldn't be too large more would use heavier armours. Or, heavier armours could be so useful that suddenly everyone would *want* to wear heavy armours ... because they are then more effective! :)
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Re: Heavy Armours

#85 Post by caelia » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:53 am

Arxthas wrote:I am not saying that plate is better. I don't know where you get that from.
Well, I'm reading the original point of your discussion - that plate "should be better", but isn't - into your post. Fair enough, but it still sounds like you think that too many people choose chain instead of plate based on OOC considerations.
Arxthas wrote:Bringing up a single character in a single case for a single decision in order to to show that in general characters are not taking the easiest route to any decision is not even logical.
This is precisely why I did not do this. I mention what my own character chose because I am most familiar with her choices; however, the plural of anecdote is not data, which is why I immediately followed this point up with other comments about the general case, in the paragraph where I talk about "Caelia or anyone else". :)

If this was supposed to be a general comment about how in certain cases not wearing plate is poor roleplay, then the most fair way I can respond is to consider how I should change Caelia's behaviour in light of the points you made. I did, and I do not see what I should change, but this is why I bring up her specific case.

Arxthas wrote:So, if the problem here is that almost nobody chooses a something perceived as an inferior armour, then I'm saying that people are minmaxing.
If there is a place where there is substantial alignment between what is IC and what is OOC, the death of a character is it - and armour is not inconsequential to survivability. In a general sense I agree that characters should have flaws, but my counterpoint is that a character who expresses this by choosing an inappropriate armour configuration is going to get a well-deserved ass-kicking, and can be expected to equip himself or herself differently the next time. :)


And having said all this, I really hope this is not taken personally. :) @Arxthas - whatever the disagreements on specific points, I do very much appreciate the spirit of your post, which as I see it is to encourage better roleplay. This is always a good thing. :)

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Re: Heavy Armours

#86 Post by lanyara » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:49 pm

I'm saying that people are minmaxing.
It's really too simple to state "min-maxing" for reaping the most benefits alone. For example, players are supposed to go and use guild armours at least more than non-guild armours. But which guilds actually do offer heavy armours as choice?

It might be worth to think about giving all kind of armours to guilds, yet perhaps not make them "equally" effective. Thieves could get "thief armour heavy platemail" as guild items, yet it would suck and thieves wouldn't *want* to use it much, but it would still be available as guild armour, to give just one example. (Doesn't make a big difference though from normal platemail I guess)

Availability in general has a big influence as well. Imagine if you could walk to an armoury and do "buy heaviest armour", and you'd get a nicely fitting heavy armour, without having to combine on your own!

I'd like that, I am really too silly to easily combine armours. :D

(Actually having this available in general might be even better than having them solely available to guilds. At least for some guilds)
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Re: Heavy Armours

#87 Post by isengoo » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:08 pm

Just want to say again that me and Delmon wrote up some descriptions for Taniel plate armours that Isen would happily wear if they existed :P

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Re: Heavy Armours

#88 Post by Minariel » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:54 am

As much as I like the idea of heavy armour being used... even real life reflects how, when and why certain types of armour became ineffective.

Composite bows and crossbows -> The death of plate armour
Rapiers -> The death of chainmail.

Not that I'm happy about it, but ineffective armour wouldn't be chosen by anyone, real life or game. =(

That being said, I'd love to see iron turtles in game. =)

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Re: Heavy Armours

#89 Post by arxthas » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:27 am

Yes, availibility of those heavy armours seems to be low. So far I have not been able to find any armours that outmatch the crusader heavy steel chains. I would happily wear heavy plate if it was available.. but at least in my case it does not seem to make sense.

It is true that crossbows essentially killed knights, plate armours and such. But on the other hand, realism is not always what is wanted. If we wanted only realism, then drilling a sword into someone's head would be close to instant-kill. Magic would not exist. The continents of Geas wouldn't be there.

I also want more turtles... most guilded people probably have a better alternative. The ones who are not guilded.. are not many, and probably do not want any of the regular ones (although characters like that existed).

Learning skills in heavy armour also seems like a significant negative factor (slower moving, less successful skill uses, less learning), as well as the amount of waiting you have to do to use them (while resting, etc).

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Re: Heavy Armours

#90 Post by lanyara » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:07 am

Yep and moving exhausts you more as well.

The last paragraph is interesting - is it really that you learn less while in heavy armours? If that would be right then I think that is a flaw which should be addressed. (I am not sure that this is the case actually, but I do agree that heavy armours seem to have only one small advantage compared to i.e. medium armours while giving a lot of disadvantages)

Increasing the availability of heavy armours would help a bit, and it would be very easy - be it that more guilds offer heavy armours (easy change) or shops in towns (easy change).
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Re: Heavy Armours

#91 Post by arxthas » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:24 am

I think so (x2).

Making new armours is probably just a matter of writing good descriptions for standard armours and getting a wiz who is willing to add them to the game - assuming we are talking about those of normal quality that can be sold in shops.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#92 Post by isengoo » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:43 pm

Bump.

After trying a few different plate armours I've found that they all cover the neck, which makes them very inconvenient. Say I wanted to wear a platemail and a chain coif. This is impossible currently.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#93 Post by per » Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:56 pm

It's not.

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(P.S. But, yes, there should probably be more diversity and availability.)

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Re: Heavy Armours

#94 Post by isengoo » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:57 pm

Well please share then Mr. Per! I've never seen a plate chest that doesn't cover the neck.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#95 Post by Eleassa » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:36 pm

Where's the option for:

Its not something my character has a reason to wear. :wink:
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Re: Heavy Armours

#96 Post by lanyara » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:03 pm

Actually, I would like to use Per's reply to refer to some older critique I wrote - when I go and want to buy and combine armours, I really have no way to find out in advance how to combine these things easily. Or, even worse, "how to get the most out of my money" if I want to buy a complete plate package. So that it gets easier to buy the thing you want to.

Hmm, at second thought... perhaps a new feature could be added into shops, where characters can buy a complete suite like "buy complete plate" or some such.
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Re: Heavy Armours

#97 Post by genesis » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:36 am

I've never seen a platemail in game that wouldn't cover also neck. This sucks. Especially in Arborea where the normal platemail is sold, is also sold great helm and gorget, and I always thought they're meant to go together - until I found out that the platemail already protects neck. Maeh.

My alt currently goes for plate, but too bad there aren't too many in game. I'd go for dwarven special platemail (since we can't wear those battle-armours), buyable from Underground?

Oh, and another option: make the chitin platemail repairable, perhaps with another piece of that chitin?
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Re: Heavy Armours

#98 Post by per » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:39 am

Chitin armour repairs would need you to replace whole pieces, so would use a good number of pieces, and would likely cap below max, unless you replace all of it. I don't see this as a critical addition, so I'm content with forcing you to make new pieces. Are you?

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Re: Heavy Armours

#99 Post by dragan » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:44 pm

A platemail without neck protection would be great, as the great helm sucks compared to the steel or battle helmet. Anyway - optimum would be, if a battle-armour was available in the shops. And of course the best would be a resize option at the smitty.

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Re: Heavy Armours

#100 Post by lanyara » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:49 pm

Especially in Arborea where the normal platemail is sold, is also sold great helm and gorget, and I always thought they're meant to go together - until I found out that the platemail already protects neck.
It would be a great service if the NPCs could "recommend" the buyers to buy a full suite of specific armour (light, medium, heavy, full plate) and such.

Right now you kind of have to buy it, and see if it fits together. Which at least for a newbie might be a bit difficult.
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