Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still MUD-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

Message
Author
Urlyth
Veteran
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:20 pm

Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#1 Post by Urlyth » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:42 am

News announcement

After serveral requests you may not long use the
commands 'songs' and 'song <name>'.

You can ask the trainer in your guild.
asl <npc>: songs
ask <npc>: song <name>

This will be active after the next reboot.

Turian

I wish to let it be known I dont know who asked for this removal but it is not a very nice change.

To learn a song and to see the achievement of seeing how you have progressed in the levels of the songs you know to me at least have always been a point of interest.

Now the only way to find out if you know a song is to go to the trainer and ask her what songs she can teach then try sing them to find out if you have learned them or not.

The progression of your achievement in that song is something I always like to know and when I see I have *** You improved your "Minstrel Boy Song" skill! *** is always a nice reason to smile and look to see how well you are doing just as any other skill that would normally be sown in the skills list.

I do not know how other guilds such as Scribes check on their skills but I am sure it hurts no one when the sKalds typed songs and saw the list of songs they knew to what level.

I would respectfully ask for it to be returned.

I also heard one other player at least say the same thing and this is what has promoted me to express my own disappointment in the simple commands removal.

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#2 Post by Zehren » Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:31 pm

I agree. I'm a skalden; I know how far I have progressed with my songs without checking with the guild teachers, who, I imagine, are also skaldens. They're peers, and I should know as much as them. I think.

Perhaps a compromise where singers and minstrels check with the guild teachers, and troubadours and skaldens know on their own. *shrug*

Or just reset it to how it was before; simplest and easiest and least imaginative.

*suddenly thinks the compromised version sounds good*
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

Olrane
Champion
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:56 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#3 Post by Olrane » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:21 pm

Yeah, I have to say it was pretty weird to me too, but I'm not fully sure if that's just that I'm resistant to change.

Already, you only got a general description, not a numerical output. I hardly see how that was poorly affecting the game; a character should have a general feeling for how well he's singing a song relative to his own progress and a perfect example.

User avatar
Cuetlachtli
Veteran
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:12 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#4 Post by Cuetlachtli » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:36 am

I don't have a huge problem with the change, since I didn't use the command much anyway, but I can see it being inconvenient for other people, especially newer player.

Songs are still skills aren't they? I always wondered why it didn't have a regular place in the skills list anyhow, with numerical output like all the others.

Truthfully, I'm interested in hearing from people who requested this change. I'm curious of the rationale behind it.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#5 Post by ganandorf » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:16 pm

Maybe it was one of my reports on another character that caused the removal.

DESC: SKALDEN MAGIC SONGS BUG: I recently joined the arborea-skalden
: guild, probably sometime within the past 4 or 5 OOC days. When I
: type the command 'songs' to show me a list of the "magical songs"
: that are available in the guild, i get no songs under that list.
: I get the headings, title, short, lang, mastery, But no songs
: listed under there. I've also gotten one lesson in miruvorea from
: carla, two lessons in war, and i have a voice skill of 3. Also if
: i type 'song miruvorea' or 'song war' to get a description of the
: song, It tells me something akin to 'this song doesnt exist' or
: whatever the actual message might be. Thanks.

COMMENT: Wed Apr 7 07:13:42 2010 by Genesis
: Status changed from new to invalid. It seems that the
: song shows in the list after 1 point of skill is gained.

COMMENT: Wed Apr 7 07:13:57 2010 by Genesis
: Though, I don't think this was always the case.

COMMENT: Wed Apr 7 07:26:15 2010 by me
: I would like to suggest an idea of being able to ask
: the trainer what a certain magical song does. Due to
: recent changes There's no way to figure this out before
: learning the song atleast, thats what it appears like

I didn't mean to have the commant removed. Just the option of asking the trainer about the different individual songs added. How am i to know what the song journey does before learning it? or the song colcan?
Meow

User avatar
Desiderea
Master
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:59 pm

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#6 Post by Desiderea » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:23 am

ganandorf wrote:I didn't mean to have the commant removed. Just the option of asking the trainer about the different individual songs added. How am i to know what the song journey does before learning it? or the song colcan?
I found that kind of irksome too. I'd have to train and practice a song before finding out if it's even one I'd use. Also, "play" gives a list of songs, which I think are the non-magical ones? But then there was something about a terror song which I think is magical but isn't offered to be trained in? I was a bit confused in general as to what all songs were available and what they did.

So, does asking the trainer about a song tell you more about that song or does it tell you how skilled you are in it? It would seem to make sense to have songs listed under skills like Lachtli said.

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#7 Post by lanyara » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:29 am

Hmm. Might be that something was overlooked?
Best race: halflings.

User avatar
Cuetlachtli
Veteran
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:12 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#8 Post by Cuetlachtli » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:11 am

I don't think it was overlooked since using the old 'songs' command you would get a list of the magical songs you knew as well as the general mastery in it. The masteries were pretty vague, boiling down to low, normal, and high. But there was some indication of your progress with it at least. For some reason they were just treated differently.
(actually, lanyara, looking back I think you and I are talking about different things in her comment maybe, oh well :P)

Now, of course, there is no way of knowing which songs you already know if you are not in the guild (if you don't have them memorized or written on a notepad anyway). And the only way to know your mastery is to just sing it and see how effective/how long the effect lasts.

As for 'terror' I don't think it is actually considered a magical song, is it? I guess it sort of acts like one, but I more considered it to just be a nasty sounding or scary sounding few notes (like a bad violin player)...but I dunno! :P

I guess the change has addressed the issue that was overlooked before (not knowing what magical songs did before learning them) but is obviously causing new potential problems. My char actually didn't have that problem since Triska was there to to tell him about all the songs, so I never even experienced that issue personally.

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#9 Post by lanyara » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:05 pm

Ok, you can not do 'songs' anymore and you are unable to see your masteries as a result.

Is that the same with scribes and alchemists? Do they have to ask NPCs to find out their masteries?

> song war
Ask a trainer in the guild about it.

I also don't get a description of what the song does anymore? I don't quite understand this latter change, honestly.

When I however do issue 'play' like this:

> play
play rain -> make light
play soul -> healing
play seasons -> relieves fatigue
play miruvorea -> drink
play colcan -> food
play sailor -> reduce alc
play war -> battlesong
play magician -> anti-magic
play journey -> protection against heat and cold
play terror -> cause fear and pain
play CallOfTheWild, DogsOfWar, FrozenRainbow, RideLikeTheWind, army, bard,
blacksmith, bloodletter, boar, clockwinder, crown, dagger, death,
drinksong, duncow, dwarf, fishes, gardener, gaun, grand, groves, halfway,
hangman, horse, hush, knight, moon, oak, ranger, redrose, tshahark, whiskey
play -> stop playing/help page
play help -> help page
tune <name> -> tune your instrument

I get a listing of songs. Can I still somehow see the description of the song?
And if I am outlawed in Arborea, I could not anymore as I can't go to the NPCs?

Just curious.
Best race: halflings.

Urlyth
Veteran
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:20 pm

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#10 Post by Urlyth » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:54 am

It is my opinion that Skald Guild has never been taken seriously enough as a guild.

1.Its leaderless. Compared to Scribes and Alchemists skalds has a high membership too and could be made more of for social and those not wanting a hack type of slash character.

2. The learning songs that were written to balance scribes/books in languages eg. Halfway sung in Gnar to help learn Gnar and Dwarf sung in Khuzdul to learn Khuzdul and Tshahark to learn Tshahark were added to the song book but the learning properties taken away so the skald still has to learn by buying books from scribes and association with the hearing of languages. This diminished the reason for writing the songs and took away the learning properties already in place for those that could speak Tshahark to play the songs as a means of teaching.

3.People continue to be able to use the Magical songs which are Guild members songs which having learned I feel should be a diminishing skill once the skald leaves the guild.

4. Now the latest change which really is a very poor change meaning a skald doesnt even have a means to see what songs he knows or how efficient in that song he is is really is not a good change and the syntax at the guild to find out is poor.

5. The Skalden doesnt have the opportunity to trade in (at maybe half the purchase price) at his own guild an instrument that he has bought and maybe learned or is not happy with. He either has to sell it to a shop outside of the guild which enables anyone lucky enough to see it to purchase it so an ex skald with no instrument could obtain it quite legitimately if hes lucky enough to spot it or the skald has to carry it around forever or use up locker space or just trash it in the reboot.

6. The skalds have asked for the facility to have their own song book so they can write and sing their own music to earn coins or entertain. Currently a skald writes a song he puts it on the board to show others and wham thats it.. no incentive to write new songs.

7. Other suggestions for instance dance.. seem to just fall on deaf ears.

Please first of all though reinstate the 'songs command to what it was'.
and then maybe please consider the guild more seriously.

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#11 Post by Zehren » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:11 am

Urlyth wrote: 1.Its leaderless. Compared to Scribes and Alchemists skalds has a high membership too and could be made more of for social and those not wanting a hack type of slash character.

2. The learning songs that were written to balance scribes/books in languages eg. Halfway sung in Gnar to help learn Gnar and Dwarf sung in Khuzdul to learn Khuzdul and Tshahark to learn Tshahark were added to the song book but the learning properties taken away so the skald still has to learn by buying books from scribes and association with the hearing of languages. This diminished the reason for writing the songs and took away the learning properties already in place for those that could speak Tshahark to play the songs as a means of teaching.

3.People continue to be able to use the Magical songs which are Guild members songs which having learned I feel should be a diminishing skill once the skald leaves the guild.

4. Now the latest change which really is a very poor change meaning a skald doesnt even have a means to see what songs he knows or how efficient in that song he is is really is not a good change and the syntax at the guild to find out is poor.

5. The Skalden doesnt have the opportunity to trade in (at maybe half the purchase price) at his own guild an instrument that he has bought and maybe learned or is not happy with. He either has to sell it to a shop outside of the guild which enables anyone lucky enough to see it to purchase it so an ex skald with no instrument could obtain it quite legitimately if hes lucky enough to spot it or the skald has to carry it around forever or use up locker space or just trash it in the reboot.

6. The skalds have asked for the facility to have their own song book so they can write and sing their own music to earn coins or entertain. Currently a skald writes a song he puts it on the board to show others and wham thats it.. no incentive to write new songs.

7. Other suggestions for instance dance.. seem to just fall on deaf ears.

Please first of all though reinstate the 'songs command to what it was'.
and then maybe please consider the guild more seriously.
1. Leaderless. Skalden can be considered leaders, but the guild is still open through the trainers. If the guild seems leaderless, this might be a roleplay issue. It might also be due to lacking code support. Any suggestions?
I'd perhaps like it to not be possible to join the guild through the trainers... Of course, if there were none skalden around, this would then have to be possible again. Perhaps the skalden(s?) can choose whether the trainers accept people or not?

2. I have improved on several languages when singing them, and I have also helped someone else practise a language by singing for him. The song in question was Halfway, sung in Gnar. Perhaps you can elaborate exactly what you mean here? I know it IS possible to practise languages by singing, but that might just be the same amount as when speaking?

3. I'm against forgetting things once you leave a guild. (with the exception of access to miracles, of course.) The better solution here is making new magical skald songs and skip around mockingly while singing and playing those.

4. I agree.

5. Agreed.

6. I have made aliases so I can sing 'The epic Tale of Lachtli Isidra and the Quest for Feathers', complete with some slightly elaborate playing on a lyre. This, of course, nets no income from taverns. An actual personal songbook would be ideal. Or skaldens could add songs to the 'public' songbook. Ex-skalds would then perhaps not have access to this continual updating of the songbook.

7. WE MUST SHOUT LOUDER!
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#12 Post by lanyara » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:20 am

The (1) can be a advantage as you don't have to deal with other characters when you want to join actually, which makes joining the guild very very easy. And at least then allows one to learn quenya boreal etc... and train these via the songs.

But I agree - compared to scribes and alchemists the skaldes are probably the least structurally important or exciting currently. You can only join one of these guilds if you are in a major "other" guilds, but the scribes by far seem to be the coolest and most important both due to the sohphisticated code and also due to the old scribes player and their roleplay. The incentive and rewards for scribes seem to be more than for the skaldes.

And although alchemists don't seem to have a structure anywhere near as close as the scribes, being able to use different formulas or research new potions sounds like more fun than seeing not many changes in a guild.

One idea that might be worth exploring would be to extend the skalden guild and allow for additional songs after specific requirements. This area could then be controlled playerdriven (I would hate to see that the skalden members could decide whether anyone may join or not though), and they could actively try to research new songs, or get other benefits slowly, perhaps somewhat similar to how scribes and alchemists can actively "research".

The (6) seems to be simple enough I guess, instead of using the boards one could use rooms and supply new songs to the "council" and that council (or whatever name it has) could actively approve or reject these kind of songs. (Wizards can still screen to disapprove songs which would be "too silly", but I think old players aren't silly and can decide on their own whether something fits or doesn't here)

Forgetting songs is bad - one can dislike it or not, but when the character trained up skills this knowledge is retained at least if you can continue to train these skills after leaving a guild. The game is less tied to guild-play and more to individual characters and their knowledge.
Best race: halflings.

per
Master
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#13 Post by per » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:42 am

No falling on deaf ears, just limited time and coding priorities.

I won't say I'll see what I can do, as it would entail putting even more things on my plate and I don't have access, but take this as you will: I have some features I would like to implement, time-permitting, sometime in the future.

Per

Urlyth
Veteran
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:20 pm

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#14 Post by Urlyth » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:02 am

Zehren said
I'd perhaps like it to not be possible to join the guild through the trainers... Of course, if there were none skalden around, this would then have to be possible again.
1. Leaderless
Leave it that people can still join at the trainers. The reason for this being that time zones and such do see some times when few players are around or even showing in the 'who' list and frustration at not being able to join because you dont know who the skalds are or whatever can still be avoided this way.

Suggestion
A leader to be able to oversee the guild in an in game way. Suggestions for updates, changes , improvements could then be suggested maybe on a board in the members only area of the guild that could be discussed and presented and then maybe voted on by Skaldens so that all the pro and cons and likes and dislikes can be ironed out before a Pro Voted idea/suggestion is presented from people it mostly concerns as active Skaldens (masters).
The leader chosen maybe by nomination and voting with a term of office that ends if the leader is absent for xxx months to make way for a new leader to be elected to carry on with the work commenced so good ideas dont get dropped.
I know it IS possible to practice languages by singing, but that might just be the same amount as when speaking?
2. Languages/songs

When the song Halfway in Gnar was first introduced it was found that the teaching of the gnar from singing/hearing the song was not working. Same with Dwarf/Khuzdul. Tshahark/Tshahark. This may have been changed since I tried to learn/teach by singing the songs. It maybe that you being a halfling can teach gnar better than a dwarf singing gnar so I will not say more on this cause in truth I dont know now. Boreal and Quenya were the languages of the Magical songs and were always good at teaching/learning the languages.
3. I'm against forgetting things once you leave a guild. (with the exception of access to miracles, of course.) The better solution here is making new magical skald songs and skip around mockingly while singing and playing those.
3 Forgetting things

Ok I understand what you say about forgetting things but I still feel that people especially alts join the skalds to get the advantages of learning the songs so they can get the benefits without any real affinity to the guild. So not much to be done I guess but to live with that. Making new magical ones in the way you said will work only for a limited period till the new wave of skalds have learned then left.
6. I have made aliases so I can sing 'The epic Tale of Lachtli Isidra and the Quest for Feathers', complete with some slightly elaborate playing on a lyre. This, of course, nets no income from taverns.
6. Song books
I too have done that with the aid of uplift from my client but it would be nice to have a personal in game song book where we can choose our favourites to sing perform with the same properties as the existing singsong song book.It would make it more fluent to use and singing our own songs for coins as and the singsong book does now.
7. WE MUST SHOUT LOUDER!
7. Deaf ears
per said
No falling on deaf ears, just limited time and coding priorities.
No insult intended Per to yourself or Turian or any Wis/Admin but I have been trying to get things done for a lot longer than this thread and often did not get a reply to my mails. Its appreciated you are very active and willing to listen and that is really great so if we put our ideas out loud please do not see it as criticism but ideas flowing from the collective brains which I for one would one day love so see some at least taking shape.

But..... please give us the command Songs back as it was before the last change.. :D

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#15 Post by lanyara » Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:48 am

Hmm. Skalds can no longer assess their knowledge nor progress as a skald on their own, being now dependent on NPCs. Is that good or bad? It doesn't seem to help skalds ...
Best race: halflings.

Urlyth
Veteran
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:20 pm

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#16 Post by Urlyth » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:18 am

Well someone said shout loudly so here I go...

SHOUTING : TURIAN PLEASE GIVE ME BACK THE ORIGINAL COMMAND SONGS.

I have improved Minstrel twice recently and Seasons once, I instinctively went to check how my progress looked and saw that stupid message ask a trainer at the guild.

All the trainers at the guild tell is what SONGS can be sung and what they mean... I want to know how much progress I am making as I do any other skill I work hard to earn an improvement in.

If it can be altered without a word to the skalds surely it can be altered back ..

SHOUTING TURIAN PLEASE GIVE BACK WHAT YOU TOOK AWAY.

Olrane
Champion
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:56 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#17 Post by Olrane » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:41 am

Hell, give us a way to check the numerical song skill values. I don't see how that would be wrong or unfair considering I can do it with everything else, even really bizarre skills.

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#18 Post by lanyara » Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:47 am

Patience I think ... ;-)
Best race: halflings.

Urlyth
Veteran
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:20 pm

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#19 Post by Urlyth » Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:38 pm

Patience usually ends up in NOTHING happening.

The songs command was a nice useful and used by skalds command it hurt nothing and no one.

If we dont keep asking for it to be returned it will be considered that its removal is acceptable.

Sorry but to me personally its not acceptable at all..

Skalds were not consulted in forum or anywhere else at this change it was just implemented without any discussion and I am sure could be restored in the same way or at least as others have said, put the songs into 1-100 numbers in the normal skills list .

Thank you..

shouting : PLEASE PLEASE TURIAN ANYONE ... BRING IT BACK

Skragna
Champion
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Removal of Skald 'Songs' Command

#20 Post by Skragna » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:42 pm

I agree. Put the command back in! If I want to check Skragna's progress, I shouldn't have to put up with those guards' damnable bigotry at the same time.


shouted: TURN IT BACK ON! PLEASE! FOR THE LOVE OF MUSIC!

Post Reply