Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

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ganandorf
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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#21 Post by ganandorf » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:03 pm

Oh no, a temporary obstruction in your ability to practice alchemy, which I assume has never happened before. Before now you've been able to practice alchemy whenever you've wanted right? Without anything stopping you? Without any problems whatsoever?

The books weren't burned, they're still there, and will eventually be returned. Leaving the game because of something like this, just a wee bit of an over-reaction, atleast in my opinion.
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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#22 Post by Olrane » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:10 pm

ganandorf wrote:Oh no, a temporary obstruction in your ability to practice alchemy, which I assume has never happened before. Before now you've been able to practice alchemy whenever you've wanted right? Without anything stopping you? Without any problems whatsoever?

The books weren't burned, they're still there, and will eventually be returned. Leaving the game because of something like this, just a wee bit of an over-reaction, atleast in my opinion.
This is a little condescending, but it's pretty much right on. As long as player-generated content is treated with respect, the rest is not a huge deal. Cruel, but that's perfectly acceptable IC. Sorry for being one of the over-reacting parties, I was originally led to believe that books were destroyed or in danger or destruction.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#23 Post by Zehren » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:29 am

Naga wrote:I'd actually support a feature, not sure how to account for it icly, allowing the "saving" of books, so that a copy might be purchased again. I wrote a number of those that went missing: a guide to physiognomy, a weather-prediction book, an annotated edition of Calarandir's herbal, the weasel book, an illustrated (in progress) book on skinning animals, and an alchemical journal. I do not have these saved on my hard-drive and basically cannot make them again.
I'd just like to point out not all those books are missing :)

I think, however, that, while frustrating, it is better that it is possible to lose books if all copies are burnt, et cetera, if you haven't "memorised" any of the books.

If a book is important, keeping copies of it in lockers, on your person and in different libraries would be the logical thing to do. The libraries part could be eschewed if the book is secret/private.
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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#24 Post by caelia » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:08 am

Let's look at this the other way - there are some very strong goodies around, and it would not be hard to gather them together, break into Asador, and kill everyone and take everything. There are plenty of IC reasons why this should be done, but OOCly it would make quite a few evil players miserable for a while, so we don't, and in the time I've played, this is only done rarely and for what I believe are very, very good IC reasons.

So I ask, what reason is there not to retaliate in this way or one which is similarly extreme? Is "total war" what you really want for Geas? I sincerely doubt it. Over the years there have been enough complaints about a "kill every evil character absolutely everywhere" approach taken by the good side, but I am not sure that a "taking candy from a baby" approach by the evil side is any better, and let's be honest, breaking into the guild cannot possibly be all that difficult.


In its current (mostly senseless, IMO) location the alchemists' guild is practically defenseless, and this was done in part to remove it from city walls and thus give greater access to it (i.e., being banished anywhere was no longer an impediment to entry). Some of you might see it differently, but I believe its location did give certain evil (or at least unsavory) characters more ways to interact with the guild, that it would have been more sensible just to keep the guild in Elvandar and its location in Bandama is rather generous to these players, and that completely looting the place is an abuse of this generosity.

I will grant that rebuilding the inventories is possible, even somewhat easy (certainly of herbs, although less so for animal parts and books - and let's be honest, Caelia probably has her own share of reasons for wanting to see some of Naga's books burned :shock:), but exactly what will keep evil characters from just waltzing in and doing this all over again? Not much, as far as I can tell, and I think that those of you who are suggesting that Loreen et. al. rebuild the guild are missing this point. Nor do I have much faith in adding guards (and with what money, now?) - as every evil zombie overlord knows, every additional guard added to the guild is just another potential well-armed zombie slave.

A similar point applies to ransom. I simply don't think that most characters would blindly assume that a Sathonite will honour a demand for ransom, and even if it is, why not just raid the guild again and demand more ransom, if it was so much fun the first time? I only see this as being a reason for older alchemists to keep their supplies and knowledge to themselves, which will do no good for younger alchemists.

But enough from me. :)

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#25 Post by adanath » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:25 am

My 2 copper coins

Its a dangerous game :P. Roleplay is the primary reason I play, to sink into another view. Partially enter into and submerse one's self in an alternate reality. (I smoke too much), nonetheless, I have seent his happen time and time again, with different things, different libraries. The characters can be manipulative in game, however, 95% of the time (or more), the players won't destroy custom armours, custom books without either serious provocation or somehow completely accidentally. Have more faith in the players, as far as the irreplacable stuff goes. To me a situation like this does dictate raiding or taking something else from the other side in order to force return of that which was stolen. It is a dangerous game though, because eventually someone gets mad and then actually does destroy something then there is reciprocation, then people leave. So my two cents is just keep your cool, see if you can work it out ic.

I do see Caelia's point in that the alchemists guild was the brunt of many discussions, especially how "unfair" it was for it to be in Elvandar for evil characters. It has now moved somewhere virtually defenseless in order to be of service to everyone. Truthfully a resolution I think would make sense is...fine if it keeps getting raided, the alchemists guild itself should decide to place itself under more protection in Elvandar again. Then wait for the complaints to happen again. For that reason and the one's Caelia stated I would make it a rare occurance to do such a thing.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#26 Post by isengoo » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:35 pm

What if I know for an absolute fact that it was a complete accident never meant to happen in any way shape or form?

:?

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#27 Post by Urlyth » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:21 am

| maybe speaking out of turn here but I thought that any book written in game by a scribe was merely a copy that they allow the world to see.

Would be a great shame to completely lose a work of art from a player long gone for whatever reason . I am sure anyone accidentally destroying a book they had not intended to would be distressing for that person too.

Very frustrating roleplay for the young alchemists with little coins and mana and know how to deal with this situataion and those not wanting pvp but it does happen and something we have to live with as part of the game.

Evil is Evil and this is an Evil act.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#28 Post by ganandorf » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:27 pm

I guess abharsair's not around to dispel this one. But similar to that case where arwenth was angry about everything set on fire, here it was the alchemist guild cashier's fire potion that set all your books on fire, because the potion hit the one carrying the books.
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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#29 Post by lanyara » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:15 pm

I think why @Loreen is frustrated is because of the amount of work spent or put into something (writing books, seeing them gone) being rather easily removed or disabled.

But this has happened in the past as well, that other players felt frustrated about actions done by this or that other playercharacter (or group of players).

In regards to the alchemist branch, I think the better solution would be to have and allow multiple branches of craft guilds in more secured but different areas in general. This way they could enjoy more protection, but aren't exclusively limited to just the "good or evil side". (That perhaps leaves out "neutral" characters, but Giat could serve as a more secure area for neutral affiliation - right now Giat seems to be quite inactive though)

Another solution may be to increase the defence of Bandama but I don't think this will work really, the same could happen again just as easily (i.e. when there aren't any good characters at all and just a few more NPCs... NPCs are normally pretty predictable).

If the branch would have been in Arborea or Elvandar I am quite sure the same would and could not have happened.

Certain actions will always irritate other playercharacters though.
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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#30 Post by Naga » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:02 am

Another solution is for characters in-game to create incentives for evil characters to leave the guild alone, i.e. cut deals and sell potions.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#31 Post by arxthas » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:11 am

lanyara wrote:In regards to the alchemist branch, I think the better solution would be to have and allow multiple branches of craft guilds in more secured but different areas in general.
I disagree. I do not like the idea of giving everyone the same copy of everything. Whether it's guilds, abilities, shop items, cities, training areas, etc.. to some extent - yes, to branch alchemists, no.

The alchemists also took the decision to move out of Elvandar - consequences they have to live with. There are no city walls around Bandama or any guards. That's a downside of making it available also for those who can not enter Elvandar (supposedly the non-good).

And like Naga said, there are ways to protect yourself. You just have to get away from the idea that everything is there for you. This also has the nice side-effect of RP.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#32 Post by Naga » Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:44 am

There seems to be a misunderstanding that the Alchemists is being attacked just because it is ill-defended, and someone who wants to cause trouble will inevitably go after it. That is part of it, but the real issue is the fact that the Alchemists have, by separating themselves from Elvandar, which, after all, wanted to force a charter upon the guild that would permanently restrict its activities, become independent.

Every institution in-game negotiates its relationship with other institutions either by itself or through a more powerful patron. The second paradigm, because the guildhall is no longer in the position to be readily protected by something else, has largely been obviated. The first paradigm, although now the Alchemists' de facto place in the world, has not been adequately played or explored. Part of that might be due to a lack of active players, but even so, the freedom of negotiating one's own relationships means responsibility for them and their consequences.

One way or another, the Alchemists have to find a balance between the various powers that be: Crusaders, Sathonytes, and Arborean law. If they can find enough support, perhaps they will have enough people just attack Sathonytes on their behalf and say, "Do not mess with the Alchemists ever again!" But this is unlikely to happen and probably would not even constitute an effective deterrent. But, as I said in my previous post, there are options, and players should not shy away from roleplaying them, just because Sathonytes are bad and dealing with them is risky and everyone hates them: matters of life and death, of the simple need to exist and function normally, legitimately call for pragmatism and trump ideology.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#33 Post by lanyara » Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:11 pm

I disagree. I do not like the idea of giving everyone the same copy of everything. Whether it's guilds, abilities, shop items, cities, training areas, etc.. to some extent - yes, to branch alchemists, no.
I don't have an alchemist character so I am personally unaffected.

But I as a player am very well affected if actions taken by other playercharacters affect my ability to interact with affected parties - i.e. if they would feel the game would be less enjoyable. And I mean this in general about players, no matter if good evil neutral....
The alchemists also took the decision to move out of Elvandar - consequences they have to live with. There are no city walls around Bandama or any guards. That's a downside of making it available also for those who can not enter Elvandar (supposedly the non-good).
I can clearly see the downside.

I just can't see the upside of making it more available that way in Bandama. Less protection and ... hmm, what advantage hmm....
I can totally see why @Loreen complains.
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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#34 Post by Naga » Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:47 pm

As far as I understand it, it was originally the intention to put the Alchemist guild in Bandama, from exchanging messages with Beddy around 2003 or so. Maybe 2004? He was joking around, certainly, but as he explained it, the Alchemists should basically play a big part in the life of the town, with the herb plantation and all, and he made references to the small town in the movie The Toxic Avenger as an analogy/inspiration. Before the guild was opened for limited testing, a closed door in the Bandama herb shop still said "Alchemist Guild" years ago.

Alchemists better start polluting.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#35 Post by arxthas » Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:53 am

lanyara wrote:I just can't see the upside of making it more available that way in Bandama. Less protection and ... hmm, what advantage hmm....
I can totally see why @Loreen complains.
I am not sure what the exact arguments were that brought this forth, but like Naga said, the original intention was indeed that the alchemists would reside in Bandama. The "upside" is as Naga said that it's "independent". You wont have Taniel clerics checking your karma as you go in and out, etc. You don't have to be friends with Elvandar, you could just as well be outlaw. This makes it more free, but also makes them lose their protection. But the freedom comes at a price and it might be that the alchemists might have to cut deals with various partieis of equivalent strength to ensure their safety. This probably means a lot of work and coordination. It's basically the same problem every NPC who stands like a dummy target outside city walls - they're free game for anyone who wants it. There's a reason medieval cities had walls :-) The lone peasant gets owned by any by-passing royalty, duke, thief-gang or whatever you like. This doesn't happen the same way in a city. I've complained about this earlier that lot of NPC's who are sacrificed on a regular basis even considers sticking around. Of course this unrealism is at least somewhat balanced since the NPC's will tell about it and the goodies will go after those who did it.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#36 Post by ferranifer » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:03 pm

Naga wrote:Animal parts---not that important, replaceable
Herbs---not that important, replaceable
Guild money chest---not that important, replaceable
Learnbooks (without other writing in them)---not that important, replaceable
Mounts---not that important, replaceable (but takes work)
Player-generated game content (books, custom items)---important, not replaceable

I'd actually support a feature, not sure how to account for it icly, allowing the "saving" of books, so that a copy might be purchased again. I wrote a number of those that went missing: a guide to physiognomy, a weather-prediction book, an annotated edition of Calarandir's herbal, the weasel book, an illustrated (in progress) book on skinning animals, and an alchemical journal. I do not have these saved on my hard-drive and basically cannot make them again.
Just ask Turian (nicely, preferably with presents) to restore them for you, or at least restore the text for you and then you can write them again. Afaik the system stores every single book ever written. And lorewise, the NPCs you guys have at the guilds can perfectly be the only excuse that the game system needs to be able to restore important books back into the game.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#37 Post by genesis » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:37 pm

I think it is also "intentional harming of other peoples ability to play" to, for example:
- banish them
- outlaw them
- ban them from guilds
- expel them from guilds

And so on. I would add "and you don't see me complaining", but actually you might.

Doing something evil is evil, sure, but evil is a part of the world and of Geas. That's the "downside" of allowing free RP and having evil sides. Even if it is something that affects the gameplay of someone drastically, it is *legal*. (Except if done with OOC motives.)
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