Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

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Loreen
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Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#1 Post by Loreen » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:03 am

I just visited the alchemist guild in order to mix the one or other potion. I had read on the Arborean board about yet another attack on Bandama. When I checked I found not only the complete storage of the guilds herbs and animal parts gone but also the complete collection of library books gone.

That means that the young alchemists have absolutely NOTHING to work with anymore.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR DESTROYING A LOT OF PEOPLES ABILITY OF HAVING SOME FUN IN THE ALCHEMISTS!

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#2 Post by Phelan » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:39 am

I dislike these kind of actions. Generally, I am against destroying items or equipment. Stealing is ok to a certain level, as long as you have a chance to recover the items, either by buying them back or some other kind of exchange.

I am no alchemist, but I can imagine that it takes a lot of time and effort to gather everything you need for potions etc., and such actions usually result in a lof of players frustrated and angry.

I have no idea who did it, but I wouldn't approve such action, neither OOC nor IC.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#3 Post by arxthas » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:46 am

I do not see a big problem with it. It sounds more like a nice steal/sabotage. Deal with it.
Phelan wrote:I dislike these kind of actions. Generally, I am against destroying items or equipment. Stealing is ok to a certain level, as long as you have a chance to recover the items, either by buying them back or some other kind of exchange.
I disagree there too. Why should a successful thief give an oppurtunity to return the wares? Isn't that the entire fun for the thief player..?
Phelan wrote:I am no alchemist, but I can imagine that it takes a lot of time and effort to gather everything you need for potions etc., and such actions usually result in a lof of players frustrated and angry.
I would agree with that, but it is also within the rules. People care less about their own lives than some random equipment - which is something that really ruins the fun.
Phelan wrote:I have no idea who did it, but I wouldn't approve such action, neither OOC nor IC.
Is it because you dislike it so much OOC that it will also influence your character? Or is that a genuine part of your character to react against? Is Phelan a long-time herbalist who generally disapprove of crime? Phelan never murdered anyone..?



EDIT: I do understand the investment in time a player makes and that makes someone suffer.. but I then think it should be either handled by the system or the player should think about what he is prepared to lose before gathering all that stuff. The game is about RP - not eq or anything else..

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#4 Post by Phelan » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:26 pm

It may be within the rules, but as you said it's a game and a game should be fun for everybody. I don't think that these kind of actions are fun to many people.

If I'd lose my custom equipment due to such actions I'd be very pissed. It took ages training and gathering the materials and coins. And just because someone things it is good RP to steal everything, it is probably a good reason to just stop playing for another player.

And yes, Phelan kills people, so do Crusaders, but that doesn't mean that they have to approve theft.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#5 Post by Loreen » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:34 pm

arxthas wrote:I do not see a big problem with it. It sounds more like a nice steal/sabotage. Deal with it.
If part of the stuff would be stolen, fine. Even all of the gathered materials, fine, they can be replaced. But EVERY SINGLE BOOK from the guilds library? Sorry, but such a behaviour I would call IC being associal!
arxthas wrote:I disagree there too. Why should a successful thief give an oppurtunity to return the wares? Isn't that the entire fun for the thief player..?
Because this is a game we play WITH other players, not against them? Even killing, getting stolen from, being sacrificed is playing WITH others. Destroying actually OOC years of contributions to the game is just playing AGAINST people! Thats why.
arxthas wrote:
Phelan wrote:I am no alchemist, but I can imagine that it takes a lot of time and effort to gather everything you need for potions etc., and such actions usually result in a lof of players frustrated and angry.
I would agree with that, but it is also within the rules. People care less about their own lives than some random equipment - which is something that really ruins the fun.
As I wrote above, the collected herbs and animal parts were hard to lose, but not irreplacable, unlike most of the books that got stolen.
arxthas wrote:
Phelan wrote:I have no idea who did it, but I wouldn't approve such action, neither OOC nor IC.
Is it because you dislike it so much OOC that it will also influence your character? Or is that a genuine part of your character to react against? Is Phelan a long-time herbalist who generally disapprove of crime? Phelan never murdered anyone..?



EDIT: I do understand the investment in time a player makes and that makes someone suffer.. but I then think it should be either handled by the system or the player should think about what he is prepared to lose before gathering all that stuff. The game is about RP - not eq or anything else..
As above, its the style of playing against people rather than with people that is the point here. It is the countless hours that resulted in books written by players, often players that are no longer around that is the real loss here. Not the herbs and animal parts, however rare, that can be just gotten back with some investment of time.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#6 Post by Olrane » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:52 pm

Wow, this...I don't even...

It's happened in the past a few times to other guilds, and I'm really disappointed to hear that this has happened again. There are some things that you don't do, roleplay be damned, just because they're so absurdly antisocial. One of those things is outright destroying unique and irreplaceable items. While it is "successful sabotage", it's quite opposite of fun.

Remember that success in any actions against a player or group of players is actually going to make them want to play less. Sathonites could ambush and murder newbies all day. Thieves could steal things and never give an opportunity to get them back. Crusaders could kill evils to the point of absolute frustration for those players.

I'm happy to see that these things aren't the norm these days, because they're antisocial even though they're "right" by roleplay and they're successful. Antisocial play is bad for the game, period.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#7 Post by arxthas » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:16 pm

Phelan wrote:It may be within the rules, but as you said it's a game and a game should be fun for everybody. I don't think that these kind of actions are fun to many people.
And why not? As long as this was for good RP reasons (I have no idea why these books were stolen... for revenge, to be sold) I do not understand why it should not be "fun" to a lot of people. If it was just some OOC to-get-back-at-you thing, then I'd be equally upset.
Phelan wrote:If I'd lose my custom equipment due to such actions I'd be very pissed. It took ages training and gathering the materials and coins. And just because someone things it is good RP to steal everything, it is probably a good reason to just stop playing for another player.
And my point is here that you then have wrong priorities. If you care that much about EQ and so little about the story.. then you simply are missing the idea.
Phelan wrote:And yes, Phelan kills people, so do Crusaders, but that doesn't mean that they have to approve theft.
Well, I said "murder" not kill. If Phelan is evil and murders people, then Phelan probably would not care about some missing books. It is of course impossible to know the real Phelan (nor do I want you to disclose it).

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#8 Post by arxthas » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:28 pm

Loreen wrote:Destroying actually OOC years of contributions to the game is just playing AGAINST people!
I personally find it hard to believe that stealing "every single book" has good RP background (unless the books are very similiar in nearly all regards). I agree that it sucks to destroy years of OOC contributions, I really do. And I do hope that whoever did it has in mind to return an equal share of nice RP for everyone on the flip side.. but still these are IC actions. When you create a book, there is nothing that will ensure you that it will remain forever. You simply can not expect that. Even keeping a big library can be lost.

I would prefer if the system was friendier on player content (and this would be simple to "mark" code-wise). Whether it's player EQ or books, etc. Not because it makes sense in-game, but simply because player content should be upvalued by the MUD owners.. I suggest making it indestructible or at least recoverable (although the former is probably very cheap to make, counting the man hours).

It would also have the nice side effect that we might even see less of the sucky suicides when recovering "holy EQ"...
Loreen wrote:As above, its the style of playing against people rather than with people that is the point here.
The way I see it is that either you're IC or you are not. I do not fully understand the "play with" and "play against" differantiation you're making. IC, I think you're allowed to be as with or against as you wish. We're playing in the same world and each character has its own motives. The sucky part is if someone does it for OOC sports or something similiar..

To me, for example using OOC information such as the who list or recovering your lost items after dying solo is to play "against" others. Troll grinding, going on "training" not because it makes sense to your character but out of routine is also "against" others. Not paying attention to other people's subtle RP or denying oppurtinity to play with them is "against". It's entirely subjective.

And just to repeat, I am really assuming that the person who did it has a nice RP reason (and preferably an involving type of follow up planned). I would not want to judge anyone on beforehand..

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#9 Post by Loreen » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:34 pm

Apparently you don't want to "get it", Arxthas.

"Playing WITH" people keeps players, "Playing AGAINST" people makes people leave.

As for the person in question, ask me IC who it was and you can ask that person yourself.

I for one can say that such behaviour were common place I definately would stop playing here. There are quite some muds out there were such asshole behaviour is not tolerated.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#10 Post by Loreen » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:48 pm

Oh, and here the latest update.

I got IC contacted by a person that wanted to do a trade for the return of the books. The stipulation was that a person, NOT Loreen for some reason, was to be taken to Asadar, dealt 3 lashings and then be released with the stolen books.

Of course I frantically tried to get in contact with any ranger or alchemist I knew that could help, but well, my tell ring failing I kept getting tells that the books were now being burned and that is was Loreens fault etc. Bla bla bla.

Well, Nice roleplay. I am actually thinking on leaving the game now. I can really do without such "nice" co-players.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#11 Post by arxthas » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:54 pm

Loreen wrote:Apparently you don't want to "get it", Arxthas.
There's no point in getting personal right?
Loreen wrote:"Playing WITH" people keeps players, "Playing AGAINST" people makes people leave.
So anything that makes a player want to leave is wrong? I disagree very much.
Loreen wrote:As for the person in question, ask me IC who it was and you can ask that person yourself.
I am not interested. In fact, I am interested in not knowing.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#12 Post by arxthas » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:01 pm

Loreen wrote:Oh, and here the latest update.

I got IC contacted by a person that wanted to do a trade for the return of the books. The stipulation was that a person, NOT Loreen for some reason, was to be taken to Asadar, dealt 3 lashings and then be released with the stolen books.

Of course I frantically tried to get in contact with any ranger or alchemist I knew that could help, but well, my tell ring failing I kept getting tells that the books were now being burned and that is was Loreens fault etc. Bla bla bla.
A bit much IC information on the forum, but ok..

So there was some motive. Kind of sucky, but OK, I've seen worse. Burning the books because someone does not answer quick enough also seems sucky and a bit too ignorant to be just ignorance. I would interpret it as "I'm want to burn the books and I need an excuse"... basically some way to get back at Loreen(?) I feel that I know just too little about the plot and IC situation to comment on it..

What I would look at was how well this action works with the characters history and if he had IC motives to do so. In either case it would be interesting to know more about the situation (but I realize that you can not up front all IC stuff) and hear a playerarch/admin about it. It sounds kind of dull/sucky/abusive.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#13 Post by Olrane » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:24 pm

Stolen books != destroyed books. I misinterpreted your original post.

I'm going to go ahead and say that that's completely fine. Destruction is lame, but ransom is not.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#14 Post by Loreen » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:08 pm

Olrane wrote:Stolen books != destroyed books. I misinterpreted your original post.

I'm going to go ahead and say that that's completely fine. Destruction is lame, but ransom is not.
Only after I posted on the forum I got contacted IC about some sucky stipulation on how to return the books. No note, no mail, no nothing. I had no prior history with the person that contacted me, so I doubt its personal against me. Maybe that person had problem with some other alchemists, I don't know.

Its just the fact that this was the third or fourth raid on the alchemist guild, each time more was taken, first 2 books, no ransom EVER asked, then the treasury was stolen, and finally the situation today.

All during this, another person of the same major guild slaughtered a well trained war horse while I checked on the alchy guild.

Somehow I do take certain things personal, and when one is often around, as I am, or perhaps was, well, getting targeted by everyone just gets you to some point where you just think that there might be other games less strenious around.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind being the occasional target of a satho attack, or even a repetive target in case I actively take part in hunts or such, but being constantly targeted, not only because of your major guild, but also because of your minor guild kinda brings it over the top.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#15 Post by Zehren » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:09 pm

warning: Long note with several paragraphs is long note with several paragraphs. (sorry, couldn't resist.)

Make copies of important books?

I can understand that this is frustrating, especially the part where the books were burned (were they burned, or was that simply a lie? I can see how some would lie about such things, causing the same grief not once, but twice or thrice).

I can also see that, while frustrating (at first?), such actins might make sense ICly. Of course, retaliation might then make sense and suddenly no one has anything, except for Zehren, who usually has all he prises around his neck and in his head and heart :roll:

I also agree with Arxthas in the regard that it is very weird folk seem to value equipment more than lives. This might make sense for some, (sathonites. After all, they are not living, and death is meeting their Master.) but for most it makes very little sense. (I think. :) )

Of course, actions such as this book-taking hurt most those it affect directly.
Especially the burn-quick part (if the books were really burned, of course) was a bit uncalled for. Organising things often take time. (IMO)

I hope you can overcome any frustration, Loreen, stay, and aid in the rebuilding of the alchemist guild. Who knows, perhaps you'll have books written about you. "She who stripped down... And rebuilt knowledge. Of plants. Accidentally." :P
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#16 Post by Olrane » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:21 pm

Loreen wrote: Only after I posted on the forum I got contacted IC about some sucky stipulation on how to return the books. No note, no mail, no nothing. I had no prior history with the person that contacted me, so I doubt its personal against me. Maybe that person had problem with some other alchemists, I don't know.

Its just the fact that this was the third or fourth raid on the alchemist guild, each time more was taken, first 2 books, no ransom EVER asked, then the treasury was stolen, and finally the situation today.
I don't know the IC circumstances, I just sincerely hope that this wasn't done because it's no longer protected by city defenses as it was in Elvandar.
All during this, another person of the same major guild slaughtered a well trained war horse while I checked on the alchy guild.
This is incredibly uncool. To kill a mount is to permadeath-kill a character, not just to sabotage someones wallet (which it does very savagely as well).
Somehow I do take certain things personal, and when one is often around, as I am, or perhaps was, well, getting targeted by everyone just gets you to some point where you just think that there might be other games less strenious around.
I've been there. I quit playing for a long time because it became too unfun to not be able to fight back while I died constantly. I think that people need to remember that there are other players behind the characters, and we want them to be having enough fun to stick around.
Don't get me wrong. I don't mind being the occasional target of a satho attack, or even a repetive target in case I actively take part in hunts or such, but being constantly targeted, not only because of your major guild, but also because of your minor guild kinda brings it over the top.
It's not really cool to target people simply because of their guild association. I hope there was more to it than that.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#17 Post by isengoo » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:30 pm

Olrane wrote:
Loreen wrote:
All during this, another person of the same major guild slaughtered a well trained war horse while I checked on the alchy guild.
This is incredibly uncool. To kill a mount is to permadeath-kill a character, not just to sabotage someones wallet (which it does very savagely as well).
Wait, what? Mounts are killed all the time. How is that permadeath killing anyone?

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#18 Post by Olrane » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:42 pm

To me, mounts are characters. If you kill my horse, you're doing more than costing me a bunch of gold. Despite numerous opportunities to do so, I've never killed a mount in PvP because it's a dick move.

Edit: If you take that "all's fair in war" mentality, you'll never agree with me. Just FYI, don't do it if you want people to want to play this game with you.
Last edited by Olrane on Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#19 Post by isengoo » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:51 pm

Mounts are killed all the time, especially in PvP situations. I don't see the problem.

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Re: Intentionally "harming" other peoples ability to play?

#20 Post by Naga » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:03 pm

Animal parts---not that important, replaceable
Herbs---not that important, replaceable
Guild money chest---not that important, replaceable
Learnbooks (without other writing in them)---not that important, replaceable
Mounts---not that important, replaceable (but takes work)
Player-generated game content (books, custom items)---important, not replaceable

I'd actually support a feature, not sure how to account for it icly, allowing the "saving" of books, so that a copy might be purchased again. I wrote a number of those that went missing: a guide to physiognomy, a weather-prediction book, an annotated edition of Calarandir's herbal, the weasel book, an illustrated (in progress) book on skinning animals, and an alchemical journal. I do not have these saved on my hard-drive and basically cannot make them again.

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