Pardon

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Amaleth
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Re: Pardon

#21 Post by Amaleth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:38 pm

Really? Where is the food stands started by the Crusade? Or making the city better for pc and npcs? Or pretty much anything beyond "I kill evil" and "We make sure you don't die" or "Divine Law is more important then Mortal Law"? Avisa is doing IC things to help, which people talk about. I have yet to see/hear one person ICLY mention /anything/ the Crusade does beyond what I just listed. Not saying you don't, cause you might, but noone hears about it. If its not being talked about/heard about, how is it assumed to affect public opinion?

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Re: Pardon

#22 Post by ganandorf » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:47 pm

Hmm amaleth next time you get kidnapped by a sathonite and get cut into bits and pieces and all that, or run into undeads on the road, or killed by insects, demons, or darkelves that often attack certain guilds/cities. Think about who usually fights them off. Then also think about which one of those is widespread, food stands in one cities, or darkelves/demons/insects that attack multiple places.

I'd say that people have to have a respect for the crusade, considering theyre the main defence against the evil sathonites which the order teams with and does not fight.

Also of course people hate the crusade, theyre pretty in your face and 'im right your wrong' type of people, which is how it should be when it comes to religion IG.
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Re: Pardon

#23 Post by Amaleth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:09 pm

Ive seen two recent bug attacks, with NO crusaders helping, but I did see others helping (including the order)

Secondly, the defense of "Well, if you get chopped into bits" doesn't really hold water. If I'm chopped into bits, the fact the Crusaders fight the sathy doesn't really help. Um, also we all know the Asrals have fought for both sides in the past, yet I've spoken to people (many of whom are 'good') who speak of the Asrals in more favorable tones then they do the Crusade.

"defending the weak" only works so far when people start seeing their protectors acting more like tyrants then saviors. Then they see the big bad evils doing things that help people, or the Crusade not being there to do what they claim is their job...

Can you see how that can affect pc/npc opinion of the Crusaders.
(Note: Something just came to mind. I notice people never have a problem with the IDEA of a "Crusade" against evil, their complaints are always directed to a handful of Crusaders. Could be an issue of the means not justifying the end)

I think having a "one for one" limit would go a long way towards fixing that, AND improving game-play for /everyone/. (Which is the most important thing)

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Arwenth
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Re: Pardon

#24 Post by Arwenth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:17 pm

Everyone is jumping down Amaleth's throat about his perception of the Crusade's public image but as someone who put over a year into a Crusader and was at some point and times one of the only active Crusaders around it's not without merit. The Crusade does have a bit of a public perception issue and it's not just from within the last month. In character it comes up a lot that the Crusade is coming off as a bunch of jerks and it's not even because of hunting evil it's about how they interact with people outside of that.

To say what the Crusade has done in the past outweighs what certain guilds are doing now is not correct. There are characters now that are about that are completely new to Geas. They don't know what the Crusade has done in the past, all they know is what they see now because no one talks about the past, theological discourse of importance is scant, I don't ever (and notice I said I don't) see any of the clergies actively talking about what their gods believe in and there are a good bit of the clerics who when they preach, preach in a language no one even understands except other clerics. New characters see, regardless of if it's true or not, the current situation based on the people they talk to, the things that happen around them.
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

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Re: Pardon

#25 Post by ganandorf » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:25 pm

Arwenth i realized what i said about what other guilds are doing now vs. what the crusade has always done was wrong, thats why i editted it almost immediately.

Also of course the perception of the crusade is going to differ people by people, its not frowned upon, its probably encouraged as it adds to RP.
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luminier
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Re: Pardon

#26 Post by luminier » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:10 pm

Neither myself nor Ganon was trying to "jump down Ameleth's throat". I think both of our responses were worded quite fairly.

I don't really care either way if anyone sees the Crusaders as 'evil'. Im still doing my job and thats the important thing. If the general population feels that grouping with people that wear humanoid bones, worship death and slavery and torture people for fun is cool, by all means go ahead. As a player I don't care lol. Luminier cares but I am not Luminier. Luminier is Luminier.

To a Crusader, there is only one right way to do things. That is to kill all evil swiftly, cleanly, and not to take pleasure in inflicting pain, but, only in serving the Lord and Lady to the letter of their commandments.

Youll note that it is difficult to defend against insect attacks for Crusaders because of quite a few in character choices that Arborean Judges have made. I am not saying it's wrong, it's fine with me lol once less job I have to do. To Luminier it matters because he should be taking part in destroying the evil of Sathonys and protecting a city of innocent people, but, instead he is outlawed from the land for some small crime he had principle enough to stand up against.

I could sit all day an argue anyone about everything the Crusaders do, and you'd understand how it is perfectly justifiable on our end. If you want to know something about the Crusaders, or why they do things a certain way, probably -not- the best idea to talk to their enemies haha.

Glad I am making life hell though, at least I am doing something right.
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Re: Pardon

#27 Post by Urik » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:02 pm

IMO this whole text went off topic. But i just have to clear something up. This is something that should be discussed IC, IMO.
What i don't like is people going on the forum and talking one guild or another. This should all be IN GAME TALK. Whenever I come on the forum and see the Crusade being bashed or w.e Luminier usually defends it. I am here to say keep all this shit off the forum. If you have a biased TALK IN GAME. If you have an opinion TALK IN GAME. If you have a really big problem TALK IN GAME.
Going back to the original topic, once again this is something that should be discussed IN GAME.
The wizards made a really awesome game. So most of the problems in RP are problems to be solved IN GAME. If you are sad that you can't play your character anymore because you left the Crusade/are an perma-enemy, maybe you should think about your actions. The Crusaders tell you leaving will result in being hunted. You can redeem yourself if on the list IN GAME. They also give chances to people who do evil stuff and don't know(mostly for newbies.) So in conclusion if you are an enemy of the Crusade THERE IS A REASON. So stop complaining and deal with the decisions you make.
I went into a McDonald's yesterday and said, 'I'd like some fries.' The girl at the counter said, 'Would you like some fries with that?'

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Re: Pardon

#28 Post by Olrane » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:16 pm

@Urik: I don't see how stifling discussion is productive. In my opinion and in my experience, whenever there's something worth discussing, it shouldn't be held back. I feel that many people would go unheard if they didn't have an OOC area such as this to vent...but also that incorrect assumptions cannot be corrected or rebutted when they're not discussed.

In short, no. Forum it up, people. Talk more, not less.

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Re: Pardon

#29 Post by Amaleth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:32 pm

Yeah, no. The forum is a perfect place to talk about this stuff, so that everyone can give their opinions as they can. I'm honestly baffled as to why anyone would want to stop that.


@Luminier: Speaking of "incorrect assumptions", no. Most of my opinions are based on things I have seen the Crusaders do on my first toon when I was infavor of the Crusade. When I was still debating if I was going to try to have that Character move in that direction or not. (I ended up going cleric, no worries). So, its not the Dreadmaster, or Avisa, or some "enemy" that is causing these opinions.

Also, how does you feeling pleased about "making hell" enhance anyone's rp other then your own? Isn't that the purpose of a mudd/mush/mux? That /everyone/ not just /some/ enjoy themselves?


ganandorf: If it was just some people, or just types of people I would agree. The problem is that even a crusader has posted here that
" - it comes up a lot that the Crusade is coming off as a bunch of jerks and it's not even because of hunting evil it's about how they interact with people outside of that."
Now, if you factor in the thousands of NPCs who would see those same actions, you can see that ICLY it should be a big issue to the crusaders. What it FEELS like (Again, not what it is but how it comes ACROSS) is that the crusaders kinda sorta act like Geas is a mud of targets and the 20 people logged in. We all do it, it's easy to fall into doing. I am just saying that it can be a problem and that a "one kill for one crime" policy/rule would go along way towards both,
1: Making Geas fun for everyone (The most important aspect)
2: Icly gaining pc/npc support

It would also let people who feel disillusioned by the Crusade to leave. Yes, they know they will be hunted down and killed, but they will also know there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Also, a 1p1 rule would not stop the Crusaders from hating/disliking the person.

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Arwenth
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Re: Pardon

#30 Post by Arwenth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:47 pm

I think I'll just repeat myself and then leave it alone.

"It comes up a lot that the Crusade is coming off as a bunch of jerks and it's not even because of hunting evil it's about how they interact with people outside of that."
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

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Re: Pardon

#31 Post by Zehren » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:10 pm

Amaleth wrote:
Also, how does you feeling pleased about "making hell" enhance anyone's rp other then your own? Isn't that the purpose of a mudd/mush/mux? That /everyone/ not just /some/ enjoy themselves?
I honestly cannot see why people think the crusade is annoying.
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Urik
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Re: Pardon

#32 Post by Urik » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:56 pm

Olrane wrote:@Urik: I don't see how stifling discussion is productive. In my opinion and in my experience, whenever there's something worth discussing, it shouldn't be held back. I feel that many people would go unheard if they didn't have an OOC area such as this to vent...but also that incorrect assumptions cannot be corrected or rebutted when they're not discussed.

In short, no. Forum it up, people. Talk more, not less.
Well poOrlane. I said to talk about it in game. All of these things discussed in this forum can be discussed in game. If you want to speak out against the Crusade or have a problem, there is nothing holding you back from discussing it in game. If people are upset, but too afraid to speak out against the Crusade in game that is part of RP. If you actually did talk about it in game, then you could actually do something about it.
In conclusion, all of this can be discussed in game and is a part of RP.
Sorry i am not one for forum bitching. :|
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Re: Pardon

#33 Post by luminier » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:32 pm

@Olrane, we agree on quite a few things but Ill have to side with Urik here. I will always favour being talking to IG than dealing with people OOC on the forum. I only bring things OOC when I feel people are being severely mislead as to what my intent was or that people are saying things that are just plain untrue.

@Ameleth, the idea behind the Crusaders it to make being evil unfavourable (and alright at least you formed the opinions based on what you saw, thats fair). Before the Crusaders, no one directly opposed evil to my knowledge (not even the Taniel Clerics). I was somewhat joking when I said I make other peoples lives IC hell, but I can imagine it's pretty annoying to fight Luminier at every turn when you are trying to be big and bad.

1 crime 1 death is typically how we do things (usually not even death, in fact rarely). But if someone is constantly committing crimes, deaths tend to rack up pretty quick. The only time when this isn't the case is for traitors. For the Crusaders leaving is the ultimate crime and can only be fixed by repenting and being pardoned by the Lord and Lady (wizards).

To be honest, it's a little funny that you think we could 'gain support' by doing the 1 crime 1 death rule. To me it just further illustrates that you haven't been around long enough to see how things have just kind of spiraled downward slowly for the Crusaders. Like I said, this rule has always been done except for Sathonites/Order/Traitors who are constantly committing crimes.

@Arwenth. You were a Crusader. Did you think you were being a jerk to everyone you met? Luminier is only a jerk to people that try to kill him or are jerks to him. He is inherently nice, forgiving and solemn. If you are trying to be nice to him and he is being an asshole/jerk to you it's because he knows what you're life has been like and he doesn't respect you at all.

@Zehren. I don't really know either. We seem to be doing our jobs...
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Re: Pardon

#34 Post by Olrane » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:52 pm

To be fair, I was responding in a general sense. I don't think people should be told to shut it if they have something to say; instead, I think that others should rebut their actual arguments.

I've not been on the Crusade hating bandwagon for years now (In fact, I think that I've come to defend the Crusade in a general sense, OOCly in the very least). To be honest, the game DID go through a sort of Reign of Terror, but that's mostly in the past.
I like to think that what's past is past, sooo...

Please people, don't get up in arms about idle talk, ICly or OOCly. Try to pinpoint the source of the conflict and deal with it (and ICly is always preferred). If you're having a problem with the Big Bad Wolf, why? What are you doing to upset the other faction? What can you do to change? Are they resisting all of your attempts to resolve the problem ICly?

The main thing, IMO, is that people need to take the time to analyse different angles of the situation before considering it hopeless. There are certain characters/players that I'd like to talk to about specific incidents, but at the moment none of them are Crusaders.

Sorry for rambling...

I'd also like to make a PSA: PvP may not be for you. I've enjoyed the game MUCH more after determining this and making efforts to avoid it whenever possible.

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Re: Pardon

#35 Post by Zehren » Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:43 am

In response to whether to discuss things on the forums or not:

If you have an OOC problem with how something is done, get it onto the forum.
If you have an IC problem with how something is done, chatter IG.
It is entirely possible to have no IC problems, yet have OOC problems about something, or the opposite.
:roll:
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Re: Pardon

#36 Post by ganandorf » Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:04 pm

Aww I was hoping everyone would get all up in arms because of this OOC idle talk. I thought we'd all pick up some pitchforks, torches, and clubs and stuff and get our revenge mob style. I thought we'd get to tar and feather a few haters. Shit, there goes my weekend.
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Re: Pardon

#37 Post by Cuetlachtli » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:32 am

oh boy here we go

Threads like this remind me of why I don't frequent the forum. And also remind me that maybe I should come more often. I usually contradict myself anyway so nothing new there.

Luminier:
I agree with your point on leaving guilds 100 percent. Too many people don't take the joining or leaving of a guild seriously. Unfortunately, in my character's situation, there is no appropriate recourse for leaving the Skalds. Hehe, we can't make them stop knowing how to sing, and certainly can't just sing 'terror' every time we see them. But it's an issue. Leaving guilds SHOULD be a pain in the ass.

Amaleth:
You brought up an old issue of death not being taken seriously enough. How many times have I felt awkward about talking about the queen of elvandar being assassinated _again_? But really it's not avoidable, unless we are going to have a permadeath mud. And pretty much no one would want that, although it would be interesting.

The answer would be to make death worse, but already some people are quite annoyed with how it is now. I think it's too soft, personally, but I can understand why some people disagree.

Ganon:
As a player, I totally respect the Crusade and what they do as a guild in the game. As a character, he does (somewhat grudgingly) recognize that what they do is _good_ and that they are a force for good and order. Not everyone thinks the Crusade are uberdicks.

On that issue, I am somewhat sad to see Luminier and you not playing as much with those characters or at all. I can understand why, of course. But really, as a player, I always enjoyed both of your roleplays, and thought they added to the game. Even if they were (rightfully) on the extreme side. I mean, jeeze, we can't all be friends IGly you know. Someone has to be a dick once in a while. I think people forget that and just want mobs to handle that side of it, but that's boring.

Arwenth:
Are you not playing anymore either? Anyhow, I wanted to comment that I don't think the Crusade is _meant_ to be looked at positively. Think about the crusades of our own history. I seriously doubt commoners looked upon them positively. Look at police in many western countries, it's not even usual that they are positively percieved, even by law-abiding citizens. That's just the way things are. And in that respect, I think the crusade has fit that role excellently.

Urik:
Your comment about IG vs OOC talk I completely agree with. While I do see the need for OOC talk about major issues, there is simply not enough real discourse IGly to solve problems. It pretty much always just starts some short lived war that solves nothing, or goes completely ignored. Even people like Moaglesh that did try were usually ridiculed. (well, in his case, it was legit for some people IG to ridicule him, but really, he is a good example of opening talks for issues he didn't like, cool stuff)

I just want to take this opportunity to again mention how I am continually surprised with how much people complain about a game that is pretty much one of the best games I've come across. Nothing is perfect. We have wizards that listen, that ask for and accept input. We have people that roleplay, we have a helpful playerbase. All of these things keep me active, playing, and looking forward to every log in. Let's remember that.

Orlane:
To quote you:
I'd also like to make a PSA: PvP may not be for you. I've enjoyed the game MUCH more after determining this and making efforts to avoid it whenever possible.
End quote.
Yep, me too. It's a combat mud, but also a RP mud. I have found that I pretty much prefer the RP completely. Once I knew that, this game became at least twice as much fun. We just have to know what's for us and not.

Again, I have made a really negative sounding long post. This is why I try to stay away....lol.

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