Pardon

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arxthas
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Pardon

#1 Post by arxthas » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:50 am

Hi,

I'd like to suggest introducing a maximum time limit for perma-enemies within the Crusader guild. I'd opt for a year or two as the upper limit. It might sound much, but the current system is much more since it's infinite. It would reduce the crappy RP which is essentially forced out of such sitautions since people will still do like they want.

Actually, in general (about non-perma crimes) I think that the good guys should be rather quick to forget crimes when they punished them. It's simply no fun for anyone if you get punished forever. The only thing that will happen is that the bad guy stops playing since he is "ruined" or he finds himself in an impossible situation. Because of that, people won't ever commit any crimes or take any risks, which will make the good guys have noone to chase and the evil guys can't be played (without being really strong, but that's a sucky requirement for having fun).

Punish once, yes, but then forget and move on.

poArx

fernao
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Re: Pardon

#2 Post by fernao » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:04 am

I wholeheartedly agree.
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Skragna
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Re: Pardon

#3 Post by Skragna » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:11 am

I think once is not enough, sometimes... I think that when the person starts to show contrition IC, then they should be given a task to be taken off the list.

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Re: Pardon

#4 Post by lanyara » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:11 pm

@Skragna:
I think once is not enough, sometimes... I think that when the person starts to show contrition IC, then they should be given a task to be taken off the list.
What @Arxthas refers to is to avoid having a guild locked into a specific situation (permanently hunting certain enemies) because some enemies may decide to not care at all if they are killed 100.000 times, and then it becomes a lot of work for those who have to do permanent PvP roleplay.

The other part, and about crimes @Skragna - let's say you want to kill a character 5 times but he stops after the fourth time. Enemy gone, less interaction.

So I agree with @Arxthas' statements both about permanent enemies and crime in general (and how it is treated in the game).
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Re: Pardon

#5 Post by Olrane » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:36 pm

As someone who did, in fact, quit a character due to feeling like he was unrecoverable in large part due to Crusader enemy status (despite negotiations he made with them), I am in support of this idea.

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Re: Pardon

#6 Post by tylluan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:50 pm

Fernao took the words right from my fingertips. This is a great idea, Arxthas.
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Re: Pardon

#7 Post by Arwenth » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:41 am

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS WONDERFUL AND HOLY CAN WE HAVE A PARDON FEATURE?

-Maybe on the Lord Marshall can pardon people?
-Possible pardon per IG year limit?
-Christmas is coming and you love us? (That's an excellent reason I'd say...)
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

per
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Re: Pardon

#8 Post by per » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:44 am

Not in any way related or motivated by anything in game:

Lord Marshalls upon retirement can fully pardon any one individual. Once a Lord Marshall steps down for good he can not assume that position again.

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Re: Pardon

#9 Post by Veriya » Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:27 pm

HA!

Per wins the Annual compromise award.

I like this, but without the little thumbs up button, I don't know what to do anymore...
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Re: Pardon

#10 Post by Arwenth » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Veriya wrote:HA!

Per wins the Annual compromise award.

I like this, but without the little thumbs up button, I don't know what to do anymore...
Only problem is Luminier according to the forum stopped playing for good. Without retiring :-/
“He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.”

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Re: Pardon

#11 Post by Olrane » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:21 pm

Veriya wrote:HA!

Per wins the Annual compromise award.

I like this, but without the little thumbs up button, I don't know what to do anymore...
poOlrane likes this.

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Re: Pardon

#12 Post by ganandorf » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:06 pm

Why is this something that needs to be compromised?

Before Per stated his compromise everyone seemed to support it wholeheartedly, why not just make it so that crusaders (and any other guilds that might) do not have permanent enemies anymore. Considering how many people play the game, and how many evil characters are currently active, more should be done to be more "welcoming" to evil characters.
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arxthas
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Re: Pardon

#13 Post by arxthas » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:21 am

Just note that I wasn't suggesting the characters/players decide themselves when the pardon shall happen. Just that it automatically is removed after some time, since right now you'll still be an alarming arch enemy after 10 or 20 years of OOC time.

I don't like the idea that there should be a command that an LM can execute as soon as the situation starts feeling unconvenient. They should hunt enemy, and do it good and hard for the betrayal. But at some point, it should stop. The guy who left the guild should be able to at least see the ligh on the other side and picture his character, in the distant future.

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Re: Pardon

#14 Post by lanyara » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:13 am

Bumping this here.

Time based pardon should be used. Or, a fixed amount of PvP kills in the "worst case". Like 5 PKs of said character before he'd be auto-removed (or something else). Even the latter would be still better than having perma-enemies.

After all, the best guild rules matter little if hardly any active player fills the guild with life by PLAYING actively in that guild with a character.
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Re: Pardon

#15 Post by Amaleth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:33 am

lanyara wrote:Bumping this here.

Time based pardon should be used. Or, a fixed amount of PvP kills in the "worst case". Like 5 PKs of said character before he'd be auto-removed (or something else). Even the latter would be still better than having perma-enemies.

After all, the best guild rules matter little if hardly any active player fills the guild with life by PLAYING actively in that guild with a character.


I really like the idea of "X PvP kills for crime of Y", if a time based pardon system can't be done. I also agree that if getting caught means getting painted in a perma-corner, going full all out evil gets less and less attractive.

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Re: Pardon

#16 Post by fernao » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:21 am

Hmm, the crusade is meant to hunt and destroy evil. So it should rather be on the "eye for an eye" level. Because when you start with something like, killing a crusader means you get killed twice, the other side will surely argument, hey, they got back at me now I got a "free shot", but the crusaders will take that "free shot" as reason go yet again kill the evil guy twice, thus, unless the evil guy doesn't give in and doesn't strike back where he would be "entitled" to, it ends up being permanent.
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Re: Pardon

#17 Post by Zehren » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:01 am

I entirely hate the idea of several deaths for any crime.

Mostly because it devalues the IC lives even further; you should be considered lucky to be resurrected, and it should not be thought of as the norm, as I see it.
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Re: Pardon

#18 Post by luminier » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:42 am

It is a serious IC decision to leave a guild. As far as I know, the Crusaders and probably the Order are the only two guilds who actually take people leaving seriously.

When you leave a guild like the Crusaders, it -should- be a pain in the ass.

This whole leaving guilds thing and then returning a few months later when you feel like it (not naming any names, you know who you are) it's pretty much BS to me. It makes Luminier as a character think less of you ICly and less of you as a group to the fact that you will just accept willy nilly and then not hunt traitors or forgive them with no real IC basis just an OOC "hey you are a good guy, come back".

If this isn't what is happening, then I stand corrected, but, this is what it -looks- like to me at least.

Does it fuck up the character if you leave a guild? It should IMO. Yeah I know it sucks and yeah I know it's a game but so rarely is it treated this way.

Take the last Asralite-Crusader war for example. It was clear one side was winning and the other side would not back down no matter what. I talked to the players OOC and they said something like "real life people don't give up" likening the situation to Afghanistan?

I hope you don't read this in the tone of an angry rant because I am really just trying to get some good thoughts from someone who has talked about this a lot out on the table. It just seems to me there is a lot of conflicting notions about how the game should be played.

It's been said more than a few times that the Crusaders are doing the right thing in hunting their enemies/traitors and that ignoring code(that the wizards actually implemented to give us -more- reason to hunt enemies) is -not- what we should be doing.
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Re: Pardon

#19 Post by Amaleth » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:11 pm

Don't know if the middle east is a good example. You had a large nation that I'm a part of claiming to fight terrorism while being terrorists. I would also argue that various countries/city-states/inquisitions have given up in the past. But once more back into the realm of "the game world".

The problem with "You left us, you die until the gods no longer bring you back" is many-folded. No group, and I do mean no group, that is as public and accessible as the Crusaders can continue for long without good Public Opinion. And while I know we all do it, myself including at times, we need to remember that Geas is suppose to be a world bigger then what we kill and the 20 people online at a given time. Elvanadar/Arborea/DU/The different smaller towns are all suppose to be populated. Hunting down former members or attacking other cities is not going to make them popular and would cause lone crusaders to be assaulted/killed. Now yes, that is not coded it but just cause it is not coded in does not mean people should "Hand-wave" or ignore the issue.

Ontop of that, its going to be hard to make new players want to join if they hear that the Crusaders are little more then bully-boys. My first character, for example, was created to join the Crusaders and when I saw them in action my first thought was "That is NOT what I signed up for" and luckily went another direction. If not, I would have either never been able to play him again (For being hunted for leaving) or had to be hunted for the rest of his life. Neither of those helps to increase RP.

Oh, and yes, I spoke to someone OOCLY who is a Crusader and was talking about how the Crusade does nothing to foster good standing in the Publics eye. But one of the so called evil guilds is...

Fernao, Zehren: Good points. I can see the flaw in my "X death" idea, and do think a more one per one death limit makes a lot more sense. I .. don't know what to say about how people treat death. Amaleth has said MANY times he can't understand how people can speak so "Easily" about how they have died and how many times they have died. He was killed by a bug and STILL reacts badly when they are brought up. He does not like being in Elvandar because being there reminds him of the time he was killed there. I, however, have ZERO ideas on how to make death seem more of a problem ICLY.

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Re: Pardon

#20 Post by luminier » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:26 pm

I'd like to know who you talked to because that is pretty wrong haha.
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