Lilithian favour

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Zehren
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Lilithian favour

#1 Post by Zehren » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:06 pm

I am wondering what sort of IC explanation there might be to account for the fact killing goblinoids makes you lose favour with Lilith.

A quick question about Mother reveals that her society is one within where the mightiest, as well as the smartest, rule.( A meritocracy of sorts :P .) And there are other IC reasons to easily deduce goblinoids kill one another.

How, then, is it logical that killing goblinoids make you lose favour with Lilith? <pondering smiley goes here>
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Re: Lilithian favour

#2 Post by isengoo » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:45 pm

Having briefly played a Lilithian character, I found it kind of annoying that you are always attacked by any other Lilithian creature, even when wearing the amulet and carrying the spear or staff.

Hats off to anyone who has the dedication!

As to the losing favor, I'm not sure if it actually happens. Can you give an account of it, maybe with a log?

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Re: Lilithian favour

#3 Post by Zehren » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:08 am

isengoo wrote:Having briefly played a Lilithian character, I found it kind of annoying that you are always attacked by any other Lilithian creature, even when wearing the amulet and carrying the spear or staff.

Hats off to anyone who has the dedication!

As to the losing favor, I'm not sure if it actually happens. Can you give an account of it, maybe with a log?
I find that not all other lilithian creatures (I've just been in contact with goblinoids) attack after you have done some specific things. When attempting doing such things, remember goblinoids are not informed by the Mother who is who, so they have but their own, blood-shot squinty eyes. :mrgreen:

The favour, I think, is lost, as I had low favour and after killing some orcs (who attacked me first! Stupid orcs!) I found myself drawn towards none deity, and quickly had to drink some "water" from a nearby "fountain".

Edit:
New, small log:

You travel a short distance north.
Inside a wooden temple, in the bugbear camp. The stench of decay and the
acrid smell of the goblinoids has seeped into every corner. In the northern
corner of this great room there is a fountain and just behind it, a totem
made of several skulls in a pile. Strange pictograms litter the walls, and
an statue of an arachnoid creature can be seen. Other than that, there is
no furniture or anything else valuable here.
There are three obvious exits: east, south, west.
Many copper coins, an eerie fountain and a wicked ritualspear.
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother].
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] says in Common: Welcome,
follower of the Mother.
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] says in Common: You can
spend any time you wish around.
You ask Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] in Common: favour
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] says in Common: Be careful
with the bugbears, they are not patient with aggressive people
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] looks at you.
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] smiles brightly.
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] tells you in Common:
Lilith is very pleased with you!
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] tells you in Common: You
are a strong follower and a shining example for all others.
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] tells you in Common: May
Lilith bless you!


// 1 orc, 4 goblins and a hobgoblin later...

Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] looks at you.
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] smiles slightly.
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] tells you in Common:
Lilith is pleased with you.
Buncha[male halforc,Priestess of the Mother] tells you in Common: You
are a firm follower, but you should not forget to sacrifice in time.

You drink the disgusting green fluid from the well.
You puke on your shoes.
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Re: Lilithian favour

#4 Post by lanyara » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:07 pm

The general auto-attacking is a problem. Undeads don't attack Sathos but goblinoids attack Lilithians ...
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Re: Lilithian favour

#5 Post by luminier » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:16 pm

Actually, Eal-Deliah undead do attack Sathonites.... only undead that the sathonites create or summon via other means do not auto attack.
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Re: Lilithian favour

#6 Post by Zehren » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:26 am

lanyara wrote:The general auto-attacking is a problem. Undeads don't attack Sathos but goblinoids attack Lilithians ...
I disagree, I find goblinoids attacking (and possibly killing) other goblinoids (and lilithians) IC consistent.

What I have trouble is to see how this could lead to any loss of favour from Lilith.

You ask Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] in Common: lilith
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: Oh, the Mother!.
Blessed will be Her name forever!
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: She guided our
people into these nice lands, where the weaklingslived, growing fat and
lazy. She is the Mother of all Goblinoids
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: from the powerful
trolls to the lowest of the snottlings. She is a wise mother, though, and
she dislikes the weak and unworthy.
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: She created us
from the flames of war, and we must battle to prove our rank in the
society.
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: It is the perfect
society, where only the strongest, and the wisest inherit all Her power to
lead us.
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: Her symbol is a
black flame.
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Re: Lilithian favour

#7 Post by matusalem » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:51 am

Perhaps Lilith has more love for her own creations than converts. It isn't like the goblinoids mission or proselytize to other races. At least that would be my reasoning of why she isn't all that keen on the slaying of goblinoids. These are her tried and true followers... not a johnny-come-lately who claims to worship her then up and kills said loyal creations, but hey, it's open to interpretation.
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Re: Lilithian favour

#8 Post by Abharsair » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:49 am

Zehren wrote:
lanyara wrote:The general auto-attacking is a problem. Undeads don't attack Sathos but goblinoids attack Lilithians ...
I disagree, I find goblinoids attacking (and possibly killing) other goblinoids (and lilithians) IC consistent.

What I have trouble is to see how this could lead to any loss of favour from Lilith.
Just in case there's a misunderstanding: merely attacking someone doesn't alter favor. Killing does.
Zehren wrote: You ask Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] in Common: lilith
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: Oh, the Mother!.
Blessed will be Her name forever!
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: She guided our
people into these nice lands, where the weaklingslived, growing fat and
lazy. She is the Mother of all Goblinoids
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: from the powerful
trolls to the lowest of the snottlings. She is a wise mother, though, and
she dislikes the weak and unworthy.
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: She created us
from the flames of war, and we must battle to prove our rank in the
society.
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: It is the perfect
society, where only the strongest, and the wisest inherit all Her power to
lead us.
Buncha[male halforc,Priest of Mother] says in Common: Her symbol is a
black flame.
There's an IC and an OOC part to this issue. The IC part is that even though Lilith might encourage a cut-throat society where the strongest rules them all, I am pretty sure that she frowns on slaughtering her followers. Less followers -> less power. So sure, kick them, beat them and enslave them, but don't kill them.

The OOC part is that your average orc/goblin/troll/etc is the standard monster of choice when a wizard needs a generic mob to guard an area. And said wizard usually doesn't want some player to run past all those guards just because he worships Lilith ("Yo troll, nice to meet you. Let me just pickup this cool weapon. And praise Lilith!").

So the issue is a little more complex than just making all goblinoids automatically peaceful towards Lilith followers.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

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Re: Lilithian favour

#9 Post by Zehren » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:30 pm

Abharsair wrote: There's an IC and an OOC part to this issue. The IC part is that even though Lilith might encourage a cut-throat society where the strongest rules them all, I am pretty sure that she frowns on slaughtering her followers. Less followers -> less power. So sure, kick them, beat them and enslave them, but don't kill them.
This was the sort of information I was after, thanks. :D

Edit:
matusalem wrote:Perhaps Lilith has more love for her own creations than converts. It isn't like the goblinoids mission or proselytize to other races. At least that would be my reasoning of why she isn't all that keen on the slaying of goblinoids. These are her tried and true followers... not a johnny-come-lately who claims to worship her then up and kills said loyal creations, but hey, it's open to interpretation.
This was also an appreciated reply. :D
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Re: Lilithian favour

#10 Post by luminier » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:00 pm

Abharsair wrote:("Yo troll, nice to meet you. Let me just pickup this cool weapon. And praise Lilith!").
So say we all.
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Re: Lilithian favour

#11 Post by Delmon » Mon May 09, 2011 3:57 am

edit: Removed a lil whining. Can live with the code as is. :twisted:
Last edited by Delmon on Tue May 10, 2011 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lilithian favour

#12 Post by Olrane » Mon May 09, 2011 2:31 pm

I don't think you're supposed to sit around for 15 minutes. I think you're supposed to take her blessing and go out in the world, risky as it may be. Embrace the chaos!

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Re: Lilithian favour

#13 Post by Delmon » Mon May 09, 2011 2:58 pm

haha Olrane, who are you playing these days? I'll make sure to run into him next time I get the blessing :P

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Re: Lilithian favour

#14 Post by lanyara » Tue May 10, 2011 2:06 am

Playing an "evil" character over a prolonged period of time actively is way too difficult. After n PvP encounters, what is left to do? Things are too constrained and restricted. Discovery is ubiquitous.

Props for trying the impossible though.
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Re: Lilithian favour

#15 Post by lanyara » Tue May 10, 2011 2:21 am

I don't think you're supposed to sit around for 15 minutes. I think you're supposed to take her blessing and go out in the world, risky as it may be. Embrace the chaos!
My gripe with the "you're supposed to" do this or that is that this can only be a top-down view from admin/wizards. But not an actual view from active players. Because, if you actively want to play an "evil" character you run into so many problems. And the "supposedly playing this or that" just won't help you in the long run.

Admin can think of you as the perfect roleplayer (as "evil" character) but where are the options for you? What benefits do you gain from worshipping Lilith either?

Zero!

You can gain a lot more from the "evil" side by going Zhakrin/Asral right now.

Now contrast the situation to the days when Jezz was worshipping Lilith (before his Satho time) - he had claws.

And when he left Lilith, he was punished by being set on fire in somewhat regular intervals. Customized punishments are about 10000000x more fun than the boring vitality loss.

Now the Jezz situation described above was much more interesting than the madness-chaos-favour-drop-adopt-different-deity-repeat-loop machinery that exists right now. Characters aren't really roleplayed when they are evil! They just fit into a narrow niche called "this is evil", some assumptions are put on them and then they ... are left on their own alone.

To do what? Hmm. PvP or prepare for PvP ...

Jezz could be the sneaky assassin in 2001.

Jezz does not play in 2011.

Anyone else realizes that playing "evil" characters simply has become too restricted, exclusive and difficult?

The overfocus on god-aspects is another problem just as is the whole cannibalism route. Rather than have deities be mystic and powerful entities, they become pure game mechanics.

In my opinion the evil side has become cartoon and comic variants, extremistic, secluded and isolated. There is just NO way at all for them to do any real plots really.

What should have happened is to encourage a plot-centric ROLEPLAY environment for the evil characters. A platform for them to go forward and roleplay, without the constraints imposed upon them in a top-down manner. (If most of them still opt to do PvP alone, that's fine, but at least OTHER evil characters could go for ROLEPLAY rather than powertraining and non-stop PvP.)

If you want to see more roleplaying possibilites, de-lock the game environment. It is really that simple, at least for the "evil" side.
At least from what is still left about them ... :)

One very simple change is suggested in this thread (poll included):
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1460

This change alone won't be enough, there are many other too-trivial ways to find out favours or at least their general hint to it (faith drop is one, karma leaking another), but at least it would be a START to make the game more playable for the "evil side" again.
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Re: Lilithian favour

#16 Post by Zehren » Tue May 10, 2011 3:47 am

Lanyara steps out of the mist with yet another insightful, long post <3<3

Edit: I too find that deities are rather reduced to game mechanics.
"You lost faith in Gwen? Must've teamed with an Asral."
"No, I realised I hated someone..."
Person shakes his head at you.


Got caught on an alt doing something...
Rather than a lot of interesting dialogue and such,
a priest appeared, favour check, knocked out and burned. :roll:


I find reputation to be a bit trife as well...
Some people are perfectly happy to sit around for hours with my slightly less-reputated characters, but go on hunts with them? No, no, they are up to something suspicious...


In short, I think neither the current deity system, karma system or reputation system works properly. :cry:
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