OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

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Olrane
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OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#1 Post by Olrane » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:55 am

This is hardly a new issue, but I feel it's very common to engage in a minor form of cheating that detracts from the game.

What I have issue with is the way that people are able to readily guess who a concealed character is. In order to do so, one has to use OOC knowledge of what characters are active while also excluding a long list of other possible player characters, not to mention the unseen non-player characters.

For example, a Sathonite cleric or a thief is spotted, and his or her race/gender is known, but the rest is not obvious. At no point is it ok to jump to the conclusion (to which you're likely correct, OOCly) that it is a specific PC if you have not encountered said PC within the same play session.

Now, you counter, what about heights and weights? You can clearly differentiate using those!

That's little more than an abuse of the system, and it's intellectually dishonest to claim otherwise. When the game mechanics tell you that you do not recognize a character, then you do not recognize that character.

There are hundreds of Sathonite priests on mission from Asador, even if only a handful are player characters. There's a whole guild of thieves sneaking about in the dark and making a living off your pockets, even if only a handful are player characters. Recognize a PC as a masked priest or a guild thief if their clothing and actions describe them as such, but save the names for when the mask comes off.

Edit: In some ways, this is little more than a bump to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1403&hilit=disguise
But it's an ongoing issue, and I thought I'd bring it up again.

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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#2 Post by ganandorf » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:48 am

Agreed. Though for masks theres a fairly low population of individuals who it could be, disguises its rediculous to be able to know.
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#3 Post by Selaina » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:22 am

Since Olrane told me to come argue here! I come argue for fun!

I don't understand how height and weight is an abuse of the game. In real life people describe masked people in height, build, ethnicity. It's not like putting on a mask turns you into a giant blob. Apart from that, if you observe people you will inevitably notice they have their own:

Fighting style
Way of walking
Scent - not many people think to disguise this
Small gestures like shrugs or twitches, or head tilts
Way of moving
Scars
Tattoos
Way of talking -The way they use words in talking and also their voice.
Also realistic stuff like ... notches in weapons, for example I smashed my hilt against someone else's hilt and there's a notch there now. Or on the wood or whatever.
Heck in tight fitting leather armour you sleazy guys can probably even recognise breast size >.>.
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#4 Post by Skeltim » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:43 am

Selaina wrote:Since Olrane told me to come argue here! I come argue for fun!

I don't understand how height and weight is an abuse of the game. In real life people describe masked people in height, build, ethnicity. It's not like putting on a mask turns you into a giant blob. Apart from that, if you observe people you will inevitably notice they have their own:

Fighting style
Way of walking
Scent - not many people think to disguise this
Small gestures like shrugs or twitches, or head tilts
Way of moving
Scars
Tattoos
Way of talking -The way they use words in talking and also their voice.
Also realistic stuff like ... notches in weapons, for example I smashed my hilt against someone else's hilt and there's a notch there now. Or on the wood or whatever.
Heck in tight fitting leather armour you sleazy guys can probably even recognise breast size >.>.
Yeah, I imagine Skeltima changed all those except the scars and eventual tattoos. Oh, wait she drank potions eventually removing three of her scars at that time.

I have never had anyone even look closely at her weapons for notches or other such things. The thing with height and weight is that it is vague, and there are supposed to be thousands upon thousands of 'invisible NPCs'.

I find it most apparent those invisible NPCs are forgotten when there's perhaps a dozen PCs in a room and 'oh, it's clogged here' or 'oh, so many people' >.> It's the market place, by Zhakrin's beard.

There are also supposed to be bunches of invisible NPC members of the various guilds.

In short, I too find the oh-so-easy to find out who concealed people are, rather appaling. There is no winning in this game, there is having fun. And trust me, having people ignore or just see through your disguises is not fun. Even if your disguise is botchered about and you look like a mime, you still wouldn't be easily recognisable.

Another issue with those invisible NPCs is that certain guilds are said to be 'active' and 'inactive' depending on if there are a lot of PC characters there wreaking havoc... *sigh*

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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#5 Post by Selaina » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:59 am

Well firstly we're speaking of masks and secondly, one would like to think their characters are perfect and remember all this, but in truth, people mess up and forget about alot of these things :P If they didn't, no one would be ever caught by the police.
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#6 Post by ganandorf » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:31 pm

Pretending invisible npc's exist for the major guilds just does not work most of the time. For example lets say that you have 2 Player character crusaders, and 4 player character Sathonites. If the two were to engage in fighting, chances are the 4 sathonites would win, knowing this the crusaders wouldnt engage in the fight. But by your logic RP would dictate that the crusaders should engage those sathonites in combat, because of course they have their allies (the invisible npc crusaders) to help them out.

I think you really have to seperate masks and disguises. With masks alot of the time its painfully obvious, I mean come on, people wearing masks would stick out even in the largely crowded (invisible npcs) cities, you only ever see 3 order members, you never see the 'invisible ones' so whenever you see one of the 3 PC order members masked its painfully obvious whose who.

Guessing disguises on the other hand is complete bullshit. Thinking of cities, in a crowd of many many people, one person is not going to stand out so much that you instantly recognize based on their height and weight that they are someone else you know. Now if they happen to slip up their saysound, their disguise (happened before), or use a particular custom emote that youve only ever seen one other character you know of using. Well, thats very different,
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#7 Post by Olrane » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:45 pm

Gotta respectfully disagree with you about masks, Ganon.

There is only one time when I feel a mask is not sufficient to conceal identity, and that's when the wearer of the mask is a race that is typically very unusual for the outfit. I can think of only a handful of examples.

Any human or darkelf Sathonite should be treated as if they are simply a human or darkelf priest, not given a name. 95% of Sathonite priests, PC and NPC, are human or darkelf. As for the Order, I bet it's also mostly humans, elves, and darkelves.

It's just awkward, IMO, to see a masked Sathonite human and be able to decide definitively that it's Jezz/Kaspars/Phelan/Herst/whomever the hell you know to be active or prominent.

It comes down to how you interpret code mechanics. It seems cut and dried to me: until and unless the description of a masked character becomes <Name> (wearing <mask>) instead of <masked person>, your character can't tell.

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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#8 Post by matusalem » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:13 pm

A difficult concept to wrap one's head around in reality, but for the sake of game play, could masks, hoods, et al conceal one's build to outward observation? Just a thought.
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#9 Post by Delia » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:08 pm

I just have to chime in, as this has been and is still one of my pet peeves where game mechanics and handling of those said mechanisms is concerned.

Frankly put...a mask alone is a POOR disguise should you have encountered that mask using person several times in the past and that said person does not do anything particular to conceal his/her person otherwise. I mean, come on, how much does it take, really, to see behind a mere mask? I think Selaina already wrote it plainly enough:
Apart from that, if you observe people you will inevitably notice they have their own:

Fighting style
Way of walking
Scent - not many people think to disguise this
Small gestures like shrugs or twitches, or head tilts
Way of moving
Scars
Tattoos
Way of talking -The way they use words in talking and also their voice.
Also realistic stuff like ... notches in weapons, for example I smashed my hilt against someone else's hilt and there's a notch there now. Or on the wood or whatever.
Heck in tight fitting leather armour you sleazy guys can probably even recognise breast size >.>.
Should a merely masked person come and engage in a lenghty RP and still assume his/her identity is safely hidden. I do not think so. Atleast, unless that said person has taken other precautions against identification.

This puts us right in the center of disguises. Sure it is a nice skill put honestly, if you are not going to invest more into it than the mere use of skill...who is going to believe you? Sure, you can apply all the make up you want but if you really opt for retaining all your usual gear, for example, for your next identity...that is stretching it, a bit too far IMHO.

As I wrote before masks are poor when engaging in lenghty conversations, for example but I recognize the problems in the areas where they should be really efficient. Fleeting encounters where you do not have the time to analyze all the details. Perhaps the question to be answered is how much protection a mask is supposed to give?

But disguises...disguises...I really think that anyone who goes for disguises should really think about the impersonated character they are going to be(Again, quote from Selaina). Wear the clothes, carry the gear, sound the part and so on. I say this because personally I think it is fun to RP even if you as a player know that the other character is disguised but you still go for the let's be oblivious path nevertheless. But still...it is always disheartening to see those same saysounds, same emotes, same gear and same whateverness. If you do not really invest into it, who is going to believe you in the end?

Not that I am complaining here that people do not do it right, no, some have done it perfectly IMO(even if they have been caught later on, luck runs out eventually)but I have had experiences of the lesser sorts as well and quite a few of them.

Just some of my out-of-date observations.
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#10 Post by Olrane » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:26 pm

Of course someone who's trying to have a concealed identity should play the part.

I don't mean to say that someone should just get a free bye because they have a skill or equipment that says they're disguised, what I do mean to say is that given an effort, it's important to make sure that your character is fooled even if you aren't, in almost all cases.

The reason I posted this was that I'm sick of saying things ICly like "I saw a masked human/darkelf priest" and getting a response of "oh, it was probably X player character." Seriously? You shouldn't make such an assumption when you didn't even encounter the PC, it's abuse of OOC knowledge (who's playing actively) and nothing more.

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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#11 Post by Selaina » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:40 am

The thing you forget is that most baddies are who off anyways.... and we're blindly guessing as our chars would be
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#12 Post by Urik » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:47 am

I think what poOrlane is trying to say is that the evils have a disadvantage as it is, being hunted by almost everyone. So we should give them a break and not just say who it is. Because I have seen this also, and actively don't participate. I like the curiousity of who is behind the mask, not just knowing. Because even though people guess, they are 80% right...So if you know who it is, keep it to yourself because some people might not know who it is.
Concerning outward appearance, don't all Sathos wear a midnight cloak/hood thing? I feel like that would cover up the whole body....and the only thing you could see would be how tall they are....
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#13 Post by Olrane » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:02 am

Selaina wrote:The thing you forget is that most baddies are who off anyways.... and we're blindly guessing as our chars would be
*Twitch* Don't get me started on "who", it's one of the worst commands in the game. All it does is to facilitate cheating, and that's why players who don't like it go who off.

Even if your characters were blindly guessing, note that they never "blindly guess" that it's someone they never have met. That's what I find issue with. There should always be at least a little bit of mystery and fear, IMO, at least before a revealing encounter.

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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#14 Post by Arwenth » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:39 am

Urik wrote: Concerning outward appearance, don't all Sathos wear a midnight cloak/hood thing? I feel like that would cover up the whole body....and the only thing you could see would be how tall they are....
I would disagree. I see monks who wear hooded robe/cloak deals every day and we can still tell which ones are fat/thin/pot-bellied etc. If the hood was up it would obscure facial details but that's about it really.
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#15 Post by Desiderea » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:03 am

Olrane wrote:Even if your characters were blindly guessing, note that they never "blindly guess" that it's someone they never have met. That's what I find issue with. There should always be at least a little bit of mystery and fear, IMO, at least before a revealing encounter.
Could you explain this? I would think that if you know X and Y are darkelf Sathonites and you see a gruesome masked darkelf, you would think, "Hm, it could be X or Y..."

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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#16 Post by Olrane » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:53 am

Desiderea wrote:
Olrane wrote:Even if your characters were blindly guessing, note that they never "blindly guess" that it's someone they never have met. That's what I find issue with. There should always be at least a little bit of mystery and fear, IMO, at least before a revealing encounter.
Could you explain this? I would think that if you know X and Y are darkelf Sathonites and you see a gruesome masked darkelf, you would think, "Hm, it could be X or Y..."
I think it's metagaming. YOU know that there are only so many player character darkelf Sathonites (and you may even know which are active), but to your character and in reality in the game, most of the clergy is represented by humans and darkelves. Thus, an unknown darkelf priest is as likely a player character as a non player character, and therefore should be treated as an unknown until he or she makes himself known with distinctive behavior or gear. For example, the Dreadmaster (or any other PC) might have a distinctive weapon by which you might see through the mask.

A character receiving a secondhand account of an unknown priest is even less able to determine who that priest was as they couldn't have gotten a good look. If they got a description of something telling, that's another matter.


At this point, though, I realize I'm beating a dead horse. People who agree with me will try to exercise discipline in their roleplay, and the others won't. That's just how it'll be.

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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#17 Post by luminier » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:30 am

I agree with Olrane. I was just as bad as everyone else about using weight as an excuse.

Eventually, I like to think I improved upon this by using their combat tactics to define the person in question in addition to weight and height as well as strength and weapons used.

But someone getting attacked by a random masked human and them claiming it was that person just based on the OOC knowledge that that is the only Sathonite human that plays isn't right, and indeed it is metagaming.

As with masks, disguises suffer the same fate, and unfortunately to an even greater extent.
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#18 Post by Selaina » Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:00 am

Beating a dead horse? >< You're the one who started this arguement with me and told me to come reply to it a couple of days ago! *Giggle*

Also.... on that point .... I don't even remember to look at my opponent during combat >.> So >.>;;;;;;
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#19 Post by ganandorf » Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:23 pm

Selaina i dont think olrane was referring to you when he said beating a dead horse. He meant that in the sense that posting on the forum does little to change peoples opinions, theyll believe what they want to believe, and do what they can to use every little nuance in the code to their benefit.

For example the only way this would change is depending on what the wizards believe. If they feel olrane has a point theyd change it so that the robes of the sathonites stopped showing height and weight. Which would make it impossible to tell the difference between two masked characters.

In the meantime maybe use some common sense, if a masked human or darkelf runs past you, then pretend you have no idea who it is, dont even bother guessing. I mean even if you did guess, it wouldnt benefit anyone anyways knowing who that sathonite was.

But if you happen to fight one wearing a mask, then you might be able to guess who it was based on their fighting style.
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Re: OOC/IC discussion: Masks and concealed identity

#20 Post by isengoo » Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:30 am

Well, to be fair, they could guess, but they shouldn't just assume they are 100% right and act accordingly.

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