Leaving the shaolin

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Delmon
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Leaving the shaolin

#1 Post by Delmon » Mon May 07, 2012 1:16 pm

Whatevers of this world and get very strong before you switch sides
Are you describing the trend to join the shoalin and then leave it? For this, I suggest suggest increasing the consequences of leaving. I suggest offering discreet bounties on former shaolin, ignoring former shaolin, and treating them as badly as possible for as long as possible.

If you are describing what could look like an inconsistency of characters' view points and beliefs, such as a switch from Taniel follower to Lilith, it's hard to say there is not good reason for this. Just as Glorfindel changed for good reasons from very Taniel to Shaolin, other old characters change for good rp reasons. I do not see this as being "bad" in the least. Every old character has a different path, and not every player starts off thinking their character, with certain beliefs and whatnot, are evil. In other words, characters might not be inconsistently played while good to begin with. Did I make an ooc choice to switch from Taniel to Lilith? Yes, but it worked for Delmon for a number of reasons.
Should that be a kill? Why not try to convince that cleric what is wrong with their view? Why not try to join the discussion and stand your ground in it ?
I really like this. I feel like we all think of the "why's" but then just grind on npcs sometimes and never get the chance to express views. When I was playing a sathos we used to go around and capture alot of characters. Although for some of the older character torture meant something, for the younger characters we just rped our views. That was always fun. Considering evil and good, Sathos and Taniel are pretty easy gods to defend views on imo, so some debate and discussion could be interesting between the two. Might want to try it out, even though it probably won't lead to anything like the other switching sides.
That said, I do think the 'auto trust' should go out of your character and stay with your ooc person. It's nothing your char would usually do
When there's 5-8 people on, what do you guys do? If someone comes along, I can't help but be interested ooc. Some people are just amazing at being non-social ic, but I have a hard time with this. When is the too nice line crossed?

glorfindel
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Re: Magic and Gods Revisited

#2 Post by glorfindel » Mon May 07, 2012 1:39 pm

Delmon wrote: Are you describing the trend to join the shoalin and then leave it? For this, I suggest suggest increasing the consequences of leaving. I suggest offering discreet bounties on former shaolin, ignoring former shaolin, and treating them as badly as possible for as long as possible.

If you are describing what could look like an inconsistency of characters' view points and beliefs, such as a switch from Taniel follower to Lilith, it's hard to say there is not good reason for this. Just as Glorfindel changed for good reasons from very Taniel to Shaolin, other old characters change for good rp reasons. I do not see this as being "bad" in the least. Every old character has a different path, and not every player starts off thinking their character, with certain beliefs and whatnot, are evil. In other words, characters might not be inconsistently played while good to begin with. Did I make an ooc choice to switch from Taniel to Lilith? Yes, but it worked for Delmon for a number of reasons.
Well, I didn't mean to say it's per se bad. But if 3 in every 4 characters leave the shaolin for something else, I can't help but feel like it's being abused. But that's not what I was refering to. For many characters it's even a valid tactic, maybe I should've rather said I'd would liked to have seen earlier hints in them that there's more then good. I mean you can't hide your dark side forever. I am intentionally not refering to any character in itself, as said I believe it's well done by most. The trend in itself is what I don't like, even though, as said, some chars really back it up and where it fits. I didn't mean to point fingers.
Delmon wrote: When there's 5-8 people on, what do you guys do? If someone comes along, I can't help but be interested ooc. Some people are just amazing at being non-social ic, but I have a hard time with this. When is the too nice line crossed?
Well, giving a three hours old char 50 gold or an slender dagger. Pulling a two days old char through all quests and share half of your guild secrets. The second one is exaggerated, the first one happened.

just my 2cc

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Re: Magic and Gods Revisited

#3 Post by Mogwai » Mon May 07, 2012 5:26 pm

glorfindel wrote: That said, a last word from my view: 'conflict' is NOT equal pvp. The 'boot to the head' should always be the last option, though 95% of geas chars (guessed) use rather force then to actually try to get yourself through and try to solve (or not solve) your conflict some other way. It's only to kill. And if every conflict you bring up ends up with a physical fight then it's not worth the trouble for me. Don't get me wrong, I see a good deal of conflicts that can only end in physical violence, but ... it should be a last resort, for a good deal of the characters in daily encounters. For example: Satho cleric finds Taniel cleric blessing their sacrifical site => that cleric will likely find themselves on a cross. Taniel cleric finds sathonys cleric talking on the crossroad ... Should that be a kill? Why not try to convince that cleric what is wrong with their view? Why not try to join the discussion and stand your ground in it ? bonespear and smite are easier though... I know. (Again, this are only examples, do not take them personally they were not aimed at any group or person, I just picked the clerics because we have a lot of them, so it's easier to follow my reasoning).

Just my 2cc, feel free to disagree.
Heres where I disagree. A Taniel cleric meeting a sathonite cleric at the crossing would not end with a talk about why you should change from this way or that. It's entirely unrealistic.
In the Gaza strip would Israeli forces suddenly stop for a chat with Palestinian forces about why they believe their right all the time?

I think the chance is pretty minimal since they've been enemies for over 50 years. I think if they met each other they wouldn't hesistate to fight.

Now put these clerics who have been enemies for HUNDREDS of years and tell me that the first thing they will do is try to persuade the opposing priest that their views are wrong while they have the ability to summon miracles and fight.
These are mortal enemies who regularly murder and destroy things sacred to each other. Having a discussion about why they should change and betray their culture and religion is really unrealistic to be the first thing to happen.

I will give props to Drayn for being willing to fight for his cause and even if people dislike that it leads to pvp I think he portrays a very good Taniel cleric, one who has known that the sathonites are an ever present threat and would react to that threat. I wish more characters would follow suite and show more distaste for when their deity's creations are being laid to waste on a regular basis.
glorfindel wrote: Well, I didn't mean to say it's per se bad. But if 3 in every 4 characters leave the shaolin for something else, I can't help but feel like it's being abused. But that's not what I was refering to. For many characters it's even a valid tactic, maybe I should've rather said I'd would liked to have seen earlier hints in them that there's more then good. I mean you can't hide your dark side forever. I am intentionally not refering to any character in itself, as said I believe it's well done by most. The trend in itself is what I don't like, even though, as said, some chars really back it up and where it fits. I didn't mean to point fingers.
As for retaining people in the shao-lin I find delmon's suggestions very reasonable. I know that certain shao-lin in the past would show some gumption and attempt to hunt down traitors and show them that there is some consequence.

Characters may become compelled to alter their current path based upon learning new IC information. Over time they may arrive at the conclusion that this is not the right place for them based upon that.

I'd like to bring up the fact that the main four evils currently in the game did not start as the guild they are now. Out of those four only one was a shao-lin at a time. You have a two former rangers, an Asral priest, and a shao-lin.

I find that the option to leave a guild is important if it does not fit your character if your character learns important and pertinent information. A character's fall from grace can be as complex as the fall of rome with a number of factors influencing or motivating them. I certainly did not intend mogwai to be an evil character from day one but instead gave him a number of character flaws.
I thought some of your statements were very generalized.

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Re: Magic and Gods Revisited

#4 Post by glorfindel » Tue May 08, 2012 9:38 am

Mogwai wrote: As for retaining people in the shao-lin I find delmon's suggestions very reasonable. I know that certain shao-lin in the past would show some gumption and attempt to hunt down traitors and show them that there is some consequence.
Well, that is entirely our choice, but we do decide that on a more personal basis. The Shaolin follow a certain philosophy and 'kill everyone on sight', is not part of their main goals. I regret even mentioning the Shaolin.
Mogwai wrote: Characters may become compelled to alter their current path based upon learning new IC information. Over time they may arrive at the conclusion that this is not the right place for them based upon that.

I'd like to bring up the fact that the main four evils currently in the game did not start as the guild they are now. Out of those four only one was a shao-lin at a time. You have a two former rangers, an Asral priest, and a shao-lin.
I do not disagree that it should be possible to leave a guild and to take a completely different path. I do dislike that many people seem to feel that the only way to become
a bad char is to be traitor to a previous guild. Sometimes it occurs naturally during the flow of playing and the transition happens, the char changes it's values, gets absorbed by the 'dark side', that all is fine.
Mogwai wrote: I find that the option to leave a guild is important if it does not fit your character if your character learns important and pertinent information. A character's fall from grace can be as complex as the fall of rome with a number of factors influencing or motivating them. I certainly did not intend mogwai to be an evil character from day one but instead gave him a number of character flaws.
That was never my point, I'm completely fine with it. Mogwai actually was one of the few where the change really became apparent and where it did take time for the switch to happen and I really liked that.

To really overdraw the bow, I have seen too much of the following szenario:

3 ooc years: Best member of a good guild, totally respectable, well wanted, no flaw at all.
3 days later: Member of an evil guild.

Maybe that makes more clear what I'm refering to. And it is highly exaggerated to make the point.
Mogwai wrote: I thought some of your statements were very generalized.
Yes, I do generalize a lot. But for a good reason. Because very often, if you do not generalize people do get offended here even if you just use them as an example. And I am in no mood for flame wars, so forgive me that.

poGlorfindel

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Delia
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Re: Leaving the shaolin

#5 Post by Delia » Thu May 24, 2012 4:03 am

As someone who has had a masterlevel shao character I must say that leaving the guild at that point hurts in a good way. Some of the stuff was just so convenient that without them it feels like a completely different game. The need for relearning how to do things and run your character's daily life was actually quite fun - not that the fact of leaving the guild is inherently fun.

All things said and gone through I should also say that the time D spent as a shao was very fun and fulfilling. Thanks to all other shaos out there who made it fun. A great guild, keep it that way! :)
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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Re: Leaving the shaolin

#6 Post by Delia » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:30 am

To sum it up, non-shaos lose advanced chi if they had it and do not enjoy from the martial arts bonus the monks have. Also meditation(hence basic chi)is similarly affected. This much Anglachel wrote on another thread.

Also as Luminier stated elsewhere the shao specials eat a very large chunk of your characters learning capability and the said specials are not really that good, given the penalties for leaving, unless you have them at ridiculous levels(which again penalizes your learning).

This said I have never felt that non-shaos knowing martial arts was ever in any way game breaking. IMHO it would only make characters such as Delia even more powerful if most of the skills were forgotten but keeping true to one's past is a RP choice as well. What was game breaking the end times when Delia was a shao master. It was truly ridiculous with the advanced chi and loosely defined access to magic. There simply was no other option but to leave as the magic skills were already higher than shao skills. Without revealing any shao secrets, Glorfindel knows exactlt what I am talking about. It was as close to being cleric/mage the game allows.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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Re: Leaving the shaolin

#7 Post by Delia » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:00 am

Main problem is, I think, shao RP. Which to my experience is great btw but it can be also extremely pacifistic and non-confrontative to the point that going out to hunt people feels completely like an OOC decision.

Also the whole shao-game really begins only after you are voted master. Then it is newbie-times all over. Reaching even black belt might seem really frustrating to some and the skills might not seem worth it if you want to fight a lot of stuff and PvP. Also the responsibilities of a shao might not seem that glorious. Dude, I finally get this black belt and now you tell me I have to spend a lot of time sitting still. Well, I liked it for one but it is not for everyone.

All in all it is one of the hardest guilds, well I guess every guild has their difficulties but it helps a lot if you have beforehand experience of the game and know its ins and outs. Using the specials effectively requires skill from the player even more than from the character, for one. A true newbie to Geas should be warned if they seek to join and given proper guidance if they decide to go ahead. Personally I think it is all worth it.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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