'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

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glorfindel
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'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#1 Post by glorfindel » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:23 am

Heya,

I've got something I wanted to throw in the round for a while now. Something I find seriously odd and that makes me wonder what has changed in GEAS in the recent times that we observe the guild distribution as it is right now. From what I see on the game on any randomly chosen day is actually no 'good' players.

What do I mean by that? There are no players that fill the role of the stereotypical or fanatic 'lawful and good guy / gal'. Just none. There are a dozen of neutral players and also a dozen of 'evil' players (even though the shades of gray are more or less stronger and don't get me wrong, I like this). Yet, there's only like two or three players who man the cause of the good. Crusaders ? 1 maybe 2. Taniel clerics? 1 maybe 2. There's the occasional Ranger too, yet also only the usual 2.

I wonder why this is the case. I know I have my own reason from not being the taniel cleric role anymore, but I would be really interested why others have stopped filling the roles of those. Sure, people frequently move on, but also new ones appear.

I do not wish to steer into the direction 'Sathos are to blame', cause I am quite convinced this is not the problem. I do not look for a scape goat. But maybe, there's game related reasons that goodies became unapalling and maybe we can do something to change that. Cause with one side being inactive (either good or evil), the game is only half as fun.

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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#2 Post by fernao » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:30 pm

I think part of the problem is that there is currently no strong character on the good side that others could rally around...
So, in fact, we Satho's are to blame. We don't hunt neutrals! If we would, they perhaps might choose the good side, rally together and put up a fight.
But I fear most are just interested in growing their character in a neutral fashion before actually making up their mind, and then playing from a strong position. Its sad, but I fear its human nature.
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#3 Post by Zehren » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:27 pm

Good is boring.

Don't get me wrong. Evil is boring too.
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#4 Post by Osiron » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:11 pm

glorfindel wrote:Heya,

I've got something I wanted to throw in the round for a while now. Something I find seriously odd and that makes me wonder what has changed in GEAS in the recent times that we observe the guild distribution as it is right now. From what I see on the game on any randomly chosen day is actually no 'good' players.

What do I mean by that? There are no players that fill the role of the stereotypical or fanatic 'lawful and good guy / gal'. Just none. There are a dozen of neutral players and also a dozen of 'evil' players (even though the shades of gray are more or less stronger and don't get me wrong, I like this). Yet, there's only like two or three players who man the cause of the good. Crusaders ? 1 maybe 2. Taniel clerics? 1 maybe 2. There's the occasional Ranger too, yet also only the usual 2.

I wonder why this is the case. I know I have my own reason from not being the taniel cleric role anymore, but I would be really interested why others have stopped filling the roles of those. Sure, people frequently move on, but also new ones appear.

I do not wish to steer into the direction 'Sathos are to blame', cause I am quite convinced this is not the problem. I do not look for a scape goat. But maybe, there's game related reasons that goodies became unapalling and maybe we can do something to change that. Cause with one side being inactive (either good or evil), the game is only half as fun.
Not that my experience with Osiron is representative of everyone as a whole but I got shut down by later implemented code that have made Osiron a perma-entry level status into the Taniel Clergy. Osiron was getting to become a reasonably solid char. It was disappointing to be one of the most dedicated clerics in the guild and be stone walled. I was easily the most active cleric at the time. I wanted to mold, shape, and help lead the Taniel Clergy (out of its cycle of weakness) but I found out that would be impossible. Leadership was divided and splintered (it seemed they didn't have time to lead either) and due to its coded structure and wasn't going to improve within the next couple of years. I didn't want to put another 20 days into a character after that. I can't speak for the situation on the whole but that is why I stopped playing. I would have preferred if this situation could have been prevented...it was entirely avoidable. C'est La Vie. Just too frustrating.
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#5 Post by Osiron » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:25 pm

fernao wrote:I think part of the problem is that there is currently no strong character on the good side that others could rally around...
So, in fact, we Satho's are to blame. We don't hunt neutrals! If we would, they perhaps might choose the good side, rally together and put up a fight.
But I fear most are just interested in growing their character in a neutral fashion before actually making up their mind, and then playing from a strong position. Its sad, but I fear its human nature.
I think the current Sathonites are doing a good job of making the game interesting. I agree with your statement for the most part but there were exceptions for players willing to play a side(goodie) from the get go. Playing a neutral is relaxing, you can get comfortable and always talk your way out of everything. Playing a good or evil well (especially on the losing side) takes balls to take a stand, maybe foolishness/zeal, a willingness to make controversy, and accepting that things aren't going to be pretty often times.
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#6 Post by per » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:54 pm

Osiron wrote:I would have preferred if this situation could have been prevented...it was entirely avoidable. C'est La Vie. Just too frustrating.
I believe the Taniel Clerics guild structure was revamped this year, around March.

Time will tell if we can make the best of the updates.

I find it regrettable that PO was allowed into the guild without indication that life might be hard for a tshahark in a guild where theological knowledge, rhetorical skills and political savvy are a must. While I think in principle it might be possible for a de facto dim-witted candidate to get into the upper ranks of such institutions, it should be impossible without someone pulling strings behind the scenes.

Perhaps I underestimate our players, but I think the temptation to go against tshahark canon gets stronger the more powerful your character becomes. You could do all these things, and the player knows it. I feel that's hard to ignore - playing tshaharks, and <i>with</i> them, convincingly can be challenging.

I could be wrong, but an outright block seemed to be the easiest solution.

A soft block would be possible, but I feel that might have been more frustrating.

Frankly, we missed a possibility opened by the new guild auto-join mechanism, and I'm sorry players had to pay for that. - Per

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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#7 Post by Skragna » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:59 pm

I haven't played Skragna in forever simply because, after a mild argument with another player over a trifling matter he was expelled and then repeatedly killed, suffered multiple god wraths as he tried to claw his way back into good karma, and still can't rejoin the Crusade despite having done so, with the message I still have to wait for time to pass, though it's been almost half a year. His lack of ability to kill anything remotely helpful toward vitality recovery at his current vitality has more or less resulted in me losing everything I've put so much work into Geas for, and there are, more and more often, restrictions being put on tshahark. It seems to me that anymore, the only guilds they can join are the skalds or the Crusade. That's not exactly a lot of leniency for new players, which results in not only a great number of harks simply not getting made, but the few that do having to be forced to simply remain permanently neutral or becoming a good guy and being obliterated by the bad guys in PvP.

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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#8 Post by Zehren » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:29 pm

Skragna wrote:Vitality things.
Killing creatures is not required to regain vitality - simply being around and doing SOMETHING will suffice. Zehren's deaths being the best example I can give. Alternatively, you could team up with someone.
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#9 Post by luminier » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:32 pm

I just want to say that you can't rejoin the Crusaders yet after a year of playtime because you need IG playtime, not OOC waiting time.

also you were expelled because of the roleplay of another character and you seem to be taking it way too personally. Yes it sucks that you were expelled I don't deny that, but you have to roll with the punches sometimes - if life was easy it wouldn't mean anything.

Tshaharks can join Crusaders, Shaolin, Rangers, Skalds, Order, Sathonites, Asralites, Taniels.... how is that limited again? =D

Did I mention everyone fears you in PvP in high end conflicts?
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#10 Post by Skragna » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:15 pm

Because it cuts out the RP aspects of the following: alchemists, scribes, magi, thieves, et cetera. I referred to the Crusade/neutral aspect because I don't see very many tshahark at all going to join those other guilds. The Order is what I'd consider a superguild, truthfully. As for 'doing' things, there's nothing Skragna /can/ do besides kill things, thanks to the limits of the code, besides talking to people, which I don't think does anything for vitality.

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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#11 Post by luminier » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:11 am

Being a tshahark is a trade off. You get very high strength and warrior RP potential at the cost of intelligence.

Tshaharks need to be limited somewhere.

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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#12 Post by fernao » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:50 am

Skragna wrote:Because it cuts out the RP aspects of the following: alchemists, scribes, magi, thieves, et cetera. I referred to the Crusade/neutral aspect because I don't see very many tshahark at all going to join those other guilds. The Order is what I'd consider a superguild, truthfully. As for 'doing' things, there's nothing Skragna /can/ do besides kill things, thanks to the limits of the code, besides talking to people, which I don't think does anything for vitality.
Hmm, alchemists, scribes and magi require creative thinking and an open and quick mind in my book. How again does that fit into the RP background provided for tshaharks that even at advances stages of the game simply cannot count to 10? Well, maybe I am a bit overrating there, but thats the tradeoff you make for choosing that race. Strong but dumb. And the brutish strength of a tshahark doesn't really fit quite well the image of a nimble-fingered thief either.

And if the wizards put in code restrictions for people that totally ignore fundamental background of the game, well. Darkelves have other problems, such as bad reputation, that also simply cannot be roleplayed or played away. You can try, and believe me I tried, but in the end, all you can do is accept certain limitations of your possibilities due to the choices you made. Be it in the choice of your starting race or the choice of becoming a darkelf.
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#13 Post by glorfindel » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:49 am

fernao wrote:I think part of the problem is that there is currently no strong character on the good side that others could rally around...
That might be so, yet generally that is a bad thing. We see that with Luminier to a certain degree. If he's gone, suddenly the remaining goodies loose most of their motivation to do anything (exaggerated). I would rather see if people would focus in reaching a certain level themselves instead of waiting for somebody else to show up. Sure, not everybody has the the time to dedicate to make a strong geas character, but some people demonstrated already that you can grow a decent character quite fast. Surely not an all rounder, but enough to be a threat.
fernao wrote: But I fear most are just interested in growing their character in a neutral fashion before actually making up their mind, and then playing from a strong position. Its sad, but I fear its human nature.
I do not mind them not being in the front row from the beginning, but there should be some dedication already. For example, if I would choose to make a crusader, I surely would be a Taniel or Evren follower as soon as I had made up my mind. I would try to show certain features that crusaders have (like following their laws to a degree already, once I know them). Crusade surely is something you do not join as a newbie (not enough old ones to protect you), but they would be aware that you will once you are stronger.
Osiron wrote: Playing a good or evil well (especially on the losing side) takes balls to take a stand, maybe foolishness/zeal, a willingness to make controversy, and accepting that things aren't going to be pretty often times.
Zehren wrote: Good is boring.

Don't get me wrong. Evil is boring too
I agree with Osiron here, that it takes more to play a goodie or badie well takes a lot of effort and being on the loosing side for a while is as well. But those are the goodies and badies that are _not_ boring. Off the shelf goodies and badies are. In my eyes a goodie has his weaknesses as a badie has his good sides. Well hidden, seldomly seen, but they _are_ there. And both sides of this must have the balls to keep playing even if you are outnumbered. Maybe your strategy changes, maybe you have to negotiate, but you should keep playing. I know most people don't though. The 'switch to my opposite alignment alt till it's over' tactic, while I can not prove it, seems to be very popular.
Osiron wrote: Not that my experience with Osiron is representative of everyone as a whole but I got shut down by later implemented code that have made Osiron a perma-entry level status into the Taniel Clergy. Osiron was getting to become a reasonably solid char. It was disappointing to be one of the most dedicated clerics in the guild and be stone walled. I was easily the most active cleric at the time. I wanted to mold, shape, and help lead the Taniel Clergy (out of its cycle of weakness) but I found out that would be impossible.
I can certainly understand that frustration. Maybe Osiron could've been made at least initiate with time, though the Limitations of a tshahark would likely prevent him from getting higher then that.
Tshahark stuff
While roughly off topic (apart of Osirons response, as that was what I was asking for), I just want to add that I believe tshaharks can become insanely strong warriors given enough time to train. I still remember Yegerfin and what he could accomplish and I still do recall the one or other crusader tshahark with insane abilities as well. I do think that there should be a tradeoff for having the strength of a giant and the ability to one hit 90% of what moves in geas (exaggerated). I honestly can not see a tshahark being a scribe, alchemist or even mage. I can see them, however, blindly and devoutly following a deity and being able to recite prayers to aid them in battle. Not as much as other races, but it should be possible.

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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#14 Post by luminier » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:12 am

Thanks for that post Glorfindel, very well thought out.

I also don't really agree that "Good" is gone. It's just as Glorfindel said, if Luminier is not around there seems to be less do-gooders... I mean it is easier to do good with someone who can back you up effectively. Everytime I am online I feel a lot safer if I can travel with at least one other person, seldom is Luminier alone.

I've talked to poMogwai about it and he seems to think that Luminier is "so good" at what he does that all the goodies have forgotten how to fight for themselves. Is that true? Hope not, cause I won't be around forever. I also realize how self centered and egotistical that sounds.

Last time I left for an extended period of time, someone else took up the Crusader reigns and pissed quite some number of people off, Skragna being one of them. It's been months after and I still have really quite cleaned up that mess yet. No ones even close to being active enough to being a guild leader for the good side.

Is good "out"? I would argue it is not, just licking its wounds and preparing, slowly.
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#15 Post by Phelan » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:27 am

luminier wrote:I've talked to poMogwai about it and he seems to think that Luminier is "so good" at what he does that all the goodies have forgotten how to fight for themselves. Is that true?
I have to agree with that, IMHO it is quite true, the players make the difference. But don't expect me to tell you how to a Satho :wink:

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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#16 Post by Zehren » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:10 am

Skragna wrote:Because it cuts out the RP aspects of the following: alchemists, scribes, magi, thieves, et cetera. I referred to the Crusade/neutral aspect because I don't see very many tshahark at all going to join those other guilds. The Order is what I'd consider a superguild, truthfully. As for 'doing' things, there's nothing Skragna /can/ do besides kill things, thanks to the limits of the code, besides talking to people, which I don't think does anything for vitality.
While joining one of those guilds will be rather impossible, I cannot see how it cuts out the RP aspects of them. With one of my tshaharks I had great fun roleplaying the tshahark's desire to be a scribe... Of course, it was not meant to be, but the chatter, the idea of writing a book about boars, etc, made it all very fun.

As for thieves - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highwayman.
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Glorfindel wrote:The 'switch to my opposite alignment alt till it's over' tactic, while I can not prove it, seems to be very popular.
Character jumpers are boring.
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#17 Post by Sairina » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:31 pm

As for 'doing' things, there's nothing Skragna /can/ do besides kill things, thanks to the limits of the code, besides talking to people, which I don't think does anything for vitality.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe anything that uses skills does something for vitality - and talking uses language skills, so as far as I can see it should help. So should sharpening your weapons, appraising things, scouting... I don't know tshahark play well enough to know what they can or can't do, but there should be a couple of things besides fighting. And I have to agree that I really can't see a tshahark mage, scribe or alchemist.

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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#18 Post by Nathan » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:48 am

glorfindel wrote:From what I see on the game on any randomly chosen day is actually no 'good' players.

I wonder why this is the case.
First of all, yes, I am wondering about that fact too, and I would like to offer some Explanations:

1.) The good side has simply finished it's job, war is over, Elvandar is safe, all is fine, so why playing, the players presence is not needed anymore

2.) The good side also might feel a little too somesone because of Arborea falling off a little, but I doubt that, infact Arborea offers even more work for the Taniellites.

3.) A third option might be that with Arborea falling off it might simply be too much work to do for the good side, too much "war fronts" and too much wars to fight.

Just my 2cc
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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#19 Post by Nathan » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:03 am

Just a little Amendment,
I personally mean that one of the most important reasons are the treaties between the good side and the evil one.

Infact - if you ignore some specific regions - every (good) guild lives in peace, and peace seems to bore people.

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Re: 'Good' being out, neutral is the new good ?

#20 Post by Zehren » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:40 am

Nathan wrote:Just a little Amendment,
I personally mean that one of the most important reasons are the treaties between the good side and the evil one.

Infact - if you ignore some specific regions - every (good) guild lives in peace, and peace seems to bore people.

Nathan

Why make treaties when your task is to crush the opposition forever?

Furthermore, why make treaties if it makes playing so dull the character is shelfphoned?
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