Tshahark Intelligence

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still MUD-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

Message
Author
Skragna
Champion
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:48 am

Tshahark Intelligence

#1 Post by Skragna » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:47 pm

It states in the help files that tshahark are cunning, but not overly bright. This leads me to a personal conundrum, as I see many RP opportunities shut down by the code simply stating 'you are a tshahark, you cannot do that'. For instance: Leading a guild, vis a vis the Crusade. While I agree they are not eminently suited for command on a political level, their cunning would allow them to lead on a military one. As to my personal issue with tshahark and alchemists, that is another example. One does not need to be extremely intelligent to be able to try new things, but I am not saying this needs to change overmuch. I'd simply like to see more occupational options open for tshahark besides simply being in the skalds. An idea I've been bouncing around my head could certainly kickstart the game's economy, and even help vitalize the lack of occupational guilds for them. However, I agree that tshahark will never be able to comprehend the theory required to wield magic, and rarely would a tshahark have the mental dedication to become a scribe. It's just extremely limiting, even by what I've come to consider tshahark standards, to have so few options available to my character at all.

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#2 Post by Zehren » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:58 pm

I am of the position that I believe tshaharks should be able to handle mundane matters averagely (or almost, at high tshahark intelligence), be perfectly fine when it comes to FIGHTING cunning. Inside a skirmish, a tshahark would be able to perform very well mentally, while planning a skirmish would be rather average (at high tshahark spectrum.) Abstract concepts, such as politics, laws, etc, however...
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

Skragna
Champion
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#3 Post by Skragna » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:06 pm

Right! A tshahark can lead a war, but not a debate.

Mogwai
Veteran
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:15 pm

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#4 Post by Mogwai » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:21 pm

I agree with Skragna pretty much. Many medieval conquerers/kings/ didn't need a formal education. Many were warlords/kings with advisors.
For a medieval genre we are stuck in arborea, asador, and elvandar which all have advanced heirarchy. What happened to being in a society with a warrior king? Maybe thats too medieval...

It sounds like people want more 1 dimensional characters and to limit rp so much. I think a dedicated tshahark players like skragna need at least a bit more options. Do you really think players want to play a game being permanently stuck in a completely restrictive cookie cutter mold?

I don't think a lot of people have the overall health of the game in mind...
It's too bad players don't have more options with tshaharks intelligence & leadership. Ultimately we'll just lose out on players because of that but thats the way we do things here.

per
Master
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#5 Post by per » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:36 pm

I think we simply don't want the lore outright ignored. There are some set elements. If that's bad and cookie-cutter, I just don't know. But I tend to think 'no'.

The setting ought to be played with, against, but not 'away'.

Mogwai
Veteran
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:15 pm

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#6 Post by Mogwai » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:55 pm

I didn't ask for lore to be disallowed. I'm pointing out the fact that people could fight their way up to prestige and leadership in medieval times. Even if a king wasn't smart that didn't mean they couldn't be successful. Instead we have total limitations of leadership on tshaharks. There is always a setting in every situation but the setting does not always control the situation that heavily. Look at Joan of Arc. She was a peasant woman at the time She wasn't supposed according to the historical setting but it as history would show she did actually make it happen. Setting can be a dominant factor but it isn't the only factor.

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#7 Post by Zehren » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:58 pm

per wrote:I think we simply don't want the lore outright ignored. There are some set elements. If that's bad and cookie-cutter, I just don't know. But I tend to think 'no'.

The setting ought to be played with, against, but not 'away'.
Can you elaborate which points brought up so far (in this thread) have been against the set lore? It might alleviate eventual confusion.
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

per
Master
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:30 pm

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#8 Post by per » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:24 pm

Zehren wrote:Can you elaborate which points brought up so far (in this thread) have been against the set lore? It might alleviate eventual confusion.
There's nothing that I particularly disagree with. I might feel that a tshahark would not be able to wage war well, but could do it effectively. But that's semantics. They might yield successful campaigns, and perhaps by being unorthodox be brilliant in their own way; but they wouldn't be the best diplomats or generals. It's hard to do basic logistics and provisioning when you have difficulty counting, much less issue complex orders based on abstract factors.

Luckily, there's not much of that in the actual job description... even though it'd be part and parcel of leaders from a lore p.o.v. I imagine we mostly leave the accounting to our day jobs. I don't think a Tshahark could personally lead a Church. A group of followers, or cult? Sure. Goblinoid shamans do that.

But what I want to get across is simple: as a game designer for a role playing game the core problem we face here is having to enforce the game through mechanisms. If players don't play their part and and are part of the "resistance" that tshaharks face in the game world all that's left are the coded mechanisms.

If the tshahark player does not encounter resistance, things have gone wrong.

Someone has to play the detractor too, we can't leave orthodoxy entirely to the code. When we do we miss out beautiful opportunities, like the day the tshahark got the best of the bigot. Or character growth from hate and fear of 'tsharks to acceptance, and maybe even friendship. Or perhaps, the day someone learned how naive they were would never come. I want to see that well tapped.

I feel there's space for refinement of content and mechanisms, as well as room for improvement and new content. And I believe showing a bit more of the lore can be helpful in giving people more leads to follow. But that all takes work.

The current situation is imperfect, but if able, we'd like to improve it.

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#9 Post by Zehren » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:58 pm

I agree with Per's post.
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#10 Post by Delia » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:28 am

And you do not necessarily have to join a guild to act as an alchemist or a thief. You can pick pockets(I'd like to see a tshahark pulling that off), sneak, hide, ambush, bribe, threaten or whatever to get yourself alchemy tools and start making all the essences of boar a tshahark can ever require.

Point is, the system allows quite much outside guild structures. Probably even for tshaharks.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

fernao
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:44 am

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#11 Post by fernao » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:54 am

Well, creating potions is only possible with equipment provided by the alchemist guild. So, unless that changes, being an alchemist only works by joining the guild.
Life is but a butterflies dream
Image

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#12 Post by Delia » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:24 am

Should an alchemist for some reason or other lose his or her equipment, then, well...So technically it is possible. Not pretty, but possible.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Drayn
Hero
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:09 pm

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#13 Post by Drayn » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:46 am

Yup. To my knowledge there's only one essential piece of kit for alchemy available from the alchemy guild shop and you could take it from a dead alchemist. It's possible to learn all the alchemy skills without being in the guild, just takes a while without the support of teachers.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#14 Post by luminier » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:39 pm

*cough*blackmail,extortion*cough*

On the case of tshahark intelligence, I like to think I roleplay Luminier in such a way that from his -experience- (not by default) he believes tshaharks have a place in society, shouldn't be shunned, that they helped humans in a time when it was their most desperate, he doesn't understand why they aren't celebrated and although he likes them and thinks they should be treated fairly, but, he knows they have their place. They have a limited mental capacity and he would never have one as his only adviser or judging a city or leading a guild. He also knows that they can be very dangerous but also very loyal and easily coerced (here have some boar!!!)

I would love to be fighting Mogwai with a piece of boar meat in my hands and throw it in the next room so he would chase after it if things got too dicey.

I digress, tshaharks should not be treated as people by default. Sure you can have experiences over time that makes your character like tshaharks more and maybe even defend their situation, but be careful. Lets face it, they were created as fodder to fight against a mindless killing machine. They were the human answer to the insects of Sathonys. At best, how can you hope to be much more than a slave? The average tshahark is probably a slave or doing some menial "strong/dumb" person task. Tshaharks were created to die and protect humans against a threat that no longer exists, so the natural progression is to make them useful again. But humans were probably like "We're still slightly evil from Sathonys taint, let us use these idiots as cheap labor after they save us muahhahaha".

Also keep in mind tshaharks have human intelligence (which isn't THAT great to begin with) mixed with animal instinctive nature. Assuming that this mix is always 1 to 1... look at the intelligence of the average goblinoid. They have the strange ability to copulate with other animals successfully so I think it would be fair to equate their level of intelligence with that of tshaharks. Assuming a goblin didn't follow Lilith or was a cannibal how do you think it would be treated in everyday society? It looks not normal (oh btw people hate things that aren't normal) and it's small and weak and useless and also dumb. They would be outcast just as much as tshahark are (or should be) IMO.


Just as a side note, I was always harder on tshaharks like Skragna or Kol and usually treated them like they were dumb.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#15 Post by Zehren » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:02 am

luminier wrote: It looks not normal (oh btw people hate things that aren't normal) and it's small and weak and useless and also dumb. They would be outcast just as much as tshahark are (or should be) IMO.
Goblins can kill newbie chars... *cough*
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

User avatar
Sairina
Hero
Posts: 434
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:40 pm

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#16 Post by Sairina » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:38 pm

Just out of curiosity, is there any enforced mechanism to keep tshaharks out of certain guilds (and apparently there is one to prevent them becoming guild leaders?), or it it up to players?

User avatar
Osiron
Experienced
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:35 pm

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#17 Post by Osiron » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:37 pm

There is a few mechanisms yes
"Oshawott! Osha-wott!"

Skragna
Champion
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#18 Post by Skragna » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:45 pm

More than a few. Tshahark can join relatively few guilds, overall, and often times can't advance to leadership within them.

User avatar
anglachel
Site Admin
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: somethere
Contact:

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#19 Post by anglachel » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:20 am

A Tshahark can not become a scribe or mage. But the other guilds are be open for them. But some position or ranks can be forbidden.

Skragna
Champion
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Tshahark Intelligence

#20 Post by Skragna » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:35 am

I can confirm that tshahark are /not/ allowed to become alchemists. Skragna's been trying for a few IG years now.

Post Reply