Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still MUD-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#1 Post by Delia » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:10 am

Given this seems to be ever relevant, how much people see this as a problem and what acttually is considered a guild-hop in all the worst ways we most often type the word? What are the dangerous, power hungry combinations that people crave after and make those OOC decisions about? I would honestly like to know what people feel and think. Is there a proper way to quit a guild and if there is, what is it and when and how it can be done? And so forth.

What people agree on that there should be consequences. Granted us players have not always risen above ourselves when handling these matters and have been, infact, quite lax in our efforts, IMHO. The code already offers some stuff atleast.

Leaving a god cuts you from all godly stuff so there is little benefit from hopping here apart from one very useful skill. Should the ritual recognition thingy be handicapped someway as well? There was discussion about switching from clergy to clergy resulting in temporary penalties.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

User avatar
matusalem
Master
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#2 Post by matusalem » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:16 am

As one who guild-hopped, I'll speak from my own perspective. My change was totally IC and organic. I started as a cleric of Taniel, and eventually left the clergy to convert to Evren with no notion of joining another guild. For years, Matusalem was guildless. I was killed for leaving and persecuted by dearly missed Tehanu for a while. I took nothing but that -one- skill with me. Eventually I got recruited by Luminier into the Crusaders. I never ever intended to put him into the Crusade; it just happened. This is how it should always be. Guild changes should be natural, organic, and be based on RP improvement than mechanical improvement. That being said, I still prefer you keep the appropriate skills as you do so... penalized or otherwise. Just one man's opinion though.
You hear a voice speaking in your mind, telling you "So-and-so is a traitor and
an enemy of the Crusade. The punishment for this crime is death. Go and
execute our will!"

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#3 Post by Delia » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:20 am

Using shao skills outside the guild already has noticeable penalties and leaving the guild wilm result in losses comparable to the clerics now as well. Most armour makes your skills laughable at best so it is very hard to use any of them with most other guilds.

Thieves are a lifestyle guild as well. I see little hopping from thief to something else. Not that much gained as some of the skills can be practiced without ever joining(but still be branded as one). I think the social consequences here are handled pretty well by the community and the code.

Of fighters I can say little apart from losing access to equipment. There is iron will though which can make fighter guilds a tempting target. A penalty to skill use would be in order if there is not one already as it could reflect working in an organization, an army, as well.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#4 Post by Delia » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:23 am

This is not intended as a beginner's guide to guildhop, btw, even if it may look like it. I just wish to highlight some possible areas which might encourage such and generally to encourage discussion.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

User avatar
matusalem
Master
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#5 Post by matusalem » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:23 am

Eh... I suppose, but I've not found iron will that major. The thing about it is, you have to know you're going to use it. Refresh might be something different though... since I've yet to experience it first hand.
You hear a voice speaking in your mind, telling you "So-and-so is a traitor and
an enemy of the Crusade. The punishment for this crime is death. Go and
execute our will!"

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#6 Post by Zehren » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:22 am

I personally see/read about the worst guild hops inbetween clergies - that is, when Tanielites or Asralites suddenly go BADONK. Sathonites, man. I am uncertain how common this is now, though.

I think a measure against this could be taken by changing the 'beseech deity' skill into 'beseech Taniel', 'beseech Asral' and 'beseech Sathonys'. Woop woop. Handling different immortals would likely involve different beseechals.

I agree with Matusalem that RP guildchanges are fine (even good!), and that keeping mundane and secular skills seems the only logical solution. (If they become irrelevant and drag down skill increase in a new area - splendider.)

I just wish there were better handling of guild traitors, everywhere.
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

User avatar
ewelyn
Professional
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#7 Post by ewelyn » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:16 am

The problems are, except for the obvious power/combat/skill powergaming thing (I do not care so much about that, to be honest, I like class-lessness, and the skills often turn useless anyway):
  • * Peoples ideas of a character generally do not change much. The impression you leave after the first couple of times you meet them usually remains for the rest of the character's life. It has happened to me personally many times that Ewelyn meet e.g. a crusader and I think of that character as an asral cleric or vice versa. I think it should lie as a responsibility on the hopper to aid changing the impression of his character. It (probably) needs to be gradually appearant and then drastically appearant.
    * Some people care alot OOC about the guild the play in and try to play proper representatives of their guild. When people have some other, hidden agenda, they not only ruin the guild, but also act dishonestly to other *players* (and devastate their efforts). It is of course something entirely different if the *character* deliberately plots to betray the other characters in the guild.
    * As brought up before, it is not always possible to punish the person who leaves, even though it might be desirable. In those cases people tried to deter hopping, it was either too little to have a real effect, or too much and the other play quit. The inconsistency in these player-made attempts sort of gives free way to the hoppers. I also suspect that in most cases, the actual players did not agree OOC, and therefore it was not roleplay either, just different OOC opinions and sometimes absurd IC situations.
    * It seems to be more or less standardized way of going from good to evil, or from lawful to unrestricted (e.g. asralite). Either the reason is to "get more freedom" or "get strong enough to be evil", and I personally believe those two are very, very bad reasons.
    * Newbies get disappointed later in life when they realize that there are consequences to leaving. The fact that they are unaware of this drives at least some meaningful propertion of all of the leaving.
    * While the game is class-less and level-less, it is really not. All guilds have huge bonuses to joining, like excellent armours, powers, spells, miracles, trainers, protection. In many of the neutral guilds there is nothing that balances the scale. Characters do not have to pay for that power in any way, by added restrictions or otherwise. Since there is no such payment, it sort of encourages you to join some power guild, then leave and join one of those guild where there is no "payment" or where nobody cares.
In my opinion, a proper guildhop might be something like:
  • * You come to the conclusion that your character must leave the guild because of something major that *happened* in game to the character (e.g. your father died, your are getting killed, etc). There must be some sort of (hard) stimulus that forces the decision. Even then that, stimulus should countered as a natural reaction from the character, but it bears impossible to resist it. As opposed to as a player, suddenly reasoning: "I rather have a mage, so I will change my characters opinion to reflect that". I think it goes in same bucket as "I wish my character to follow a different god, so I'll try to start donating to counter this mechanism" (which is technically cheating in a RP game). It is easy to say, "but my character thinks this way", but that is just often an excuse to act in a certain way, an act of taking a freedom of defining one's character, in a way that one shouldn't. That said, there are good soft reasons too, but it is not possible to determine what the true reason is.
    * As a part of the previous condition, is of course that you never remain in a guild with the OOC intention of leaving it or waiting to join another later on (especially not because the new feature XYZ will come).
    * You leave the guild *without* OOC the intention to join another. A person who breaks up his/her entire life and starts living another does so because it is impossible to keep living the way they are doing (preferably *despite* desperate attempts to remain). It should have absolutely nothing to do with "the next guild".
    * You leave the guild as an enemy, and not as a "friend". This is actually the thing I dislike most: people who leave their guilds as "friend" and the guild leaders basically just accepts it "because we go so far, and this guy is nice"! The most common guild hop (and the more problematic one) is when people leave on good terms. The opposite sort of tends to sort itself out better, and putting a lesser burden on the leadership of the old guild by becoming their enemy seems like a more forgivable way of leaving. Letting people leave as friend is a real enabler for all of this in the first place.
    * If you ever join a new one, you do not accept a higher rank (this is something I think should be enforced by code).
    * Strive not to join a guild on the same side of good/evil. In the olden days, the time-punishments for joining the arch-enemy was always the least punishment time-wise, while for example skipping between two normally friendly guilds (or the same guild) was highest. It makes no sense to betray a guild and join something that is very close to what you are already in.
For everyone else:
  • * NEVER accept that someone leaves your guild, *regardless* of what the reasons are. Your cause is always more worth, and the reasons are always inferior to that. At least for clergies.
    * Don't do the game the disfavour of treating traitors as regular people. Even if are generally unaffected by it, or possibly benefit from it. Even lawful evils (and neutrals) should recognize the idea of keeping ones word (we have very few lilithians who would be exempt from that), and their responsibility to look down on it it is as big as any one else's.
I think it happens quite seldomly near this.. As a result, the guild identities further are weakened. When identities are weakend, diversity disappears, consistency disappear, the room for conflict disappears...

There are also different guilds for the "next guild" that are more or less fitting to join. I think for example the Crusaders is a good guild to join, because it is more realistic that a large army ask less questions, or take in bad eggs (at low ranks of course). The legion would have been an even better example.

Okay, all of these are of course generalizations and should be interpreted as such. It is not a hard recipe of how to do it, and certainly I think there are examples of where some of these points have been neglected and it worked perfectly. I do not think guildhopping is a problem in itself, if it is done right. So to answer your question, I think it basically it comes down to not trying grind skills, remain consistent RP-wise, be nice to others and not violate the ideas behind the guilds.

I know that the admins I have spoken to are very much against guild-hopping, for various reasons, so it is not just about the players (and probably a big reason why this issue persists). The idea is, speaking very roughly, that you should not hop easy, but it still happens all the time. And I sort of suspect that many players do not actually agree so much with for example the things I have written? My view is that most people do not think it is much of a problem to friend-leave a guild.

I also favour the idea of perma-members of a guild, e.g. sensei, even though it means that those of us who take that path are event more locked in than e.g. a darkelf (who can always join a different evil guild). Those who are willing to take such a long term commitment should truly also enjoy the benefits of being genuine, even though it's not exactly like there are not any downsides.

The only real exception for me to most of this, is the mages. I can not say why, but it feels fair enough to me that some people left their guilds to join them. Maybe it is partly because from what I know, many of them I know, have certainly not taken any shortcuts and remained otherwise consistent.

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#8 Post by Zehren » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:55 am

I agree with most everything Ewelyn has written.
I would personally like to see more ways to punish characters, in particular, the possibility to brand people with words. Woop woop. Take that, traitor, now your forehead reads "Traitor". I surmise this is handlable with descriptions, though.
Last edited by Zehren on Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

User avatar
Rudolpho
Professional
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:19 am
Location: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#9 Post by Rudolpho » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:56 am

Well... there is branding... just not with specific words. Since it's used so rarely, I imagine a culture could grow around it meaning guild traitor. I dunno.

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#10 Post by Zehren » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:59 am

Rudolpho wrote:Well... there is branding... just not with specific words. Since it's used so rarely, I imagine a culture could grow around it meaning guild traitor. I dunno.
Seeing as one can brand horses with words, the, eh, "technology" exists.
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

User avatar
Rudolpho
Professional
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:19 am
Location: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#11 Post by Rudolpho » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:02 pm

Horse branding is entirely experimental, and is not yet ready for human trials. Seriously, though I mean you have the means this very second to go brand a traitor. Go get'em.

Zehren
Overlord
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:50 am

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#12 Post by Zehren » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:14 pm

Rudolpho wrote:Horse branding is entirely experimental, and is not yet ready for human trials. Seriously, though I mean you have the means this very second to go brand a traitor. Go get'em.
I lack a character with which to burn traitor feet :(
Drayn wrote:Zehren, the Karmassassin!

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#13 Post by luminier » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:41 pm

I totally agree with Matusalem's experience... guild hopping should follow with what happens to your character.

However what I suspect happens most times with guild hopping is that it either planned from the start (upon character creation) or the player just doesn't want to start a new character, makes up some reason (usually a lame one... or sometimes no reason at all) and just leaves the guild to join another. I am not saying I have seen this among characters and their players recently, but over the years it is something I have noticed generally.

when i was "young" i was basically fast tracked to become a chevalier. then i was rping loving a human girl and so I choose the girl over the crusaders a classic love story for the ages. but then things became sour and the hunting of the crusaders proved too much for the young lovers and drove them apart... (this wouldve made a lot more sense if I didn't join the shaolin, bloody hell i was an idiot back then)... but I left the shaolin and rejoined the crusaders after many killings, torturings, and RP convos with poMalys and poMathias and fights with poRedentes.

But it was very much organic and I feel how guild hopping should be done if at all. Oppurtunities arise and then you choose to take those oppurtunities... you shouldn't leave because you don't like the leaders hair one day and then join the evils or something. Seems lame.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
Allurana
Hero
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:05 pm

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#14 Post by Allurana » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:19 pm

I think leaving a guild on "friendly" terms is fine, so long the deserter has to suffer appropriate punishments/penance/etc. to earn the forgiveness.

For instance, if I were a guildleader, I might be willing to eventually forgive a deserter if they approached me beforehand telling me their desire to leave, cooperated with my terms of handling it, subjected themselves to any punishments or tasks I demanded from them, etc., to show that their remorse was sincere.

I'd try to find a balance between making the penance sufferable for the deserter, but still tough and hard, to try to weed out those who are just wanting an easy ride out of things from those who are truly willing to make up for it.

However, I'd never just give someone a free ride out of a guild, and I don't like seeing that done. There should be consequences for leaving, regardless of reasons, past history, future intentions, and so on.

EDIT:
PS; the Shaolin used to have a branding iron of a closed eye or something, to punish deserters with. I don't know what's happened to it over the years; I assume it's still with Yegerfin.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#15 Post by Delia » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:58 am

Yes, I remember that branding iron. Delia had it at one point as well. No idea what happened to it. By the way, we actually used it way back then :twisted:

Delia's guild history can seem messy. From Skald to Scribe, from Legion to Shao-Lin and finally to Mages. Only one that has ever bothered me was jumping from Skalds to Scribes. The Scribes were just out of the box and there was this massive exodus from the Skalds. Then again it was during a time when the Skalds were the only layman guild option.

The Legion was eventually destroyed with me one day logging in after a long absence(imagine the wtf)but it was all cool, I only regret that I did not play a part in the very final moments. The poor straggler that was Delia, being incompatible with Crusader ideals was finally taken, after some time, in to the Shao temple where she stayed for ages. Then stuff very slowly begun to happen over time which evolved into a leaving process that was slowly processed over a RL year or so.

The final result was a friendly leaving from a guild. Sure there were some OOC thoughts about the matter in favour of D from other parties(new guild formed, stuff, etc)which I personally would liked to leave out from the equation. Anyways, the point is that ties between the old guild were not severed but in ways were reinforced. The point is that there are still obligations towards the old guild. A code of conduct that must be observed. A way of life that was not completely discarded in favour of another.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

User avatar
anglachel
Site Admin
Posts: 823
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: somethere
Contact:

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#16 Post by anglachel » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:32 am

There is a difference between changing a guild and guild hopping.
It is normal that sometimes a char switch from one guild to an other. There can be many good reason. A new guild is opened, or somtething happend in the old guild, or geting some information about an other guild so that it would better fit to the char.
Guild hopping is to join the guild only to get some feature or skills and then leave, then joining the next guild and so on. This is unwanted.
But joining guild and then recognise after some time it was the wrong choise and leaving it is a normal behavior.
But is very difficult to differ the first from the second. Sometimes it is clear, but sometimes not.

User avatar
matusalem
Master
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#17 Post by matusalem » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:40 am

In that case, Matusalem wasn't a guild hopper at all. I swear.
You hear a voice speaking in your mind, telling you "So-and-so is a traitor and
an enemy of the Crusade. The punishment for this crime is death. Go and
execute our will!"

Delmon
Champion
Posts: 751
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: USA

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#18 Post by Delmon » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:10 pm

Asral/Ranger -> Lilith -> Taniel Cleric -> Lilith

No guild hopping here. It's always been about a little push from me as a player after taking in and assessing all the experiences and influences that my character has had while trying to cause a little fun/cause things to happen in geas. It made sense that Delmon ran to the taniel clerics to escape Lilith/cannibalism/ everything else he was persecuted for, realized he didn't quite fit in with them after some time, relapse after a journey and finally envelope himself in the darkness by converting to a darkelf. Now he sees himself as the good guy. :twisted:

He's certainly different in many ways than back in the day as a naive ranger-wannabe, a good 5-6 ooc years ago... but if you have this much time on geas with one character there's going to be some natural guild switching.

User avatar
Rudolpho
Professional
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:19 am
Location: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Re: Do(or don't!)the Guild-Hop

#19 Post by Rudolpho » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:22 pm

Well, everyone knows Delmon is no bad guy, but merely a misunderstood rascal.

Post Reply