Balance issues - PVP

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still MUD-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Balance issues - PVP

#1 Post by luminier » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:57 pm

Let me preface by saying that I am very thankful for all the great updates and coding the wizards do in the game.

However, without going too in depth, I believe there are some growing "balance issues" in PVP that need to be addressed. I feel that currently it is very difficult to play a good character in both politics and PVP and in this topic I would like to speak of the PVP aspect.

I would like to remind the wizards that are working with players that balance in PVP should always be considered -even though- that this is an RP focused game... is that an okay statement to make?

Does anyone who engages in PVP believe the current state of things are unfair? I would appreciate your opinions. And as always keep the flaming to a minimum. I made this topic in order to make the game more fun for everyone =D

Thanks in advance for the responses!
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Aenima
Apprentice
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:02 am

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#2 Post by Aenima » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:05 am

I'd have to agree with there being some balance issues, I'm not one that engages in pvp nor does Aenima side with the good or bad but from what I've heard I'm curious as to why the good guys (cru/taniels) are at a disadvantage, but the sathonites are the ones that are being buffed?

ie. revenants and being able to attack through armours and normal weapons unaffecting them

asador gate being more difficult than it should be imo, while elvandar is not that well defended (edit: actually dont know much about this subject but havent seen Asador raided recently but Lucifer/Phelan just seemed to roll through Elvandar)

and now a new miracle that traps people in a room, making them unable to move?

the recent changes seem a bit odd imo...but could be missing some things as well about these changes if anyone can enlighten me
Last edited by Aenima on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Think for yourself. Question authority.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#3 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:06 am

For me the biggest issue is that it's a period in the games time where the Sathonites are CLEARLY dominant PVP wise, I don't think that can be disputed. There are fewer active evils than goods, but yet, they are still dominant. It feels to me like the lower numbers makes them feel outnumbered.

Normally when this happens the weaker side gets buffed and the dominant side remains the same. But for some reason it seems to me, and others involved in good side pvp, that the dominant side is getting buffed. I'm not sure what the solution is here, because if the evil side buffs are removed they will feel weaker and feel like they are losing the pvp (when they are not!) and it won't be good for their morale either.

I made a character who was relatively middling, but the PVP was just morale destroying. It seemed like the PVP is geared towards Luminier leading a good side team vs. Phelan leading an evil side team. And if you are none of the two, then there's no point in even attempting to PVP.

BRIEF: Change is GOOD everyone loves change. Buffing the dominant (current) guild is bad (in my opinion). The difference between change and buffing is subtle but important. Actually I love when the game changes, as long as the changes are fair and balanced, equal advantages to drawbacks.
Last edited by ganandorf on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:45 am, edited 4 times in total.
Meow

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#4 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:10 am

Revenants were changed from being incorporeal after I reported it so that isn't an issue anymore. But, that is strange (strange to me) that it would be decided that it is important to buff a creature that is already very difficult to kill especially with two ghouls in tow and a cleric or two with it.

I think Ganondorf raises a good point. PVP should just be balanced at an average level and then those who are strong like Luminier or Phelan can take advantages of the advantages given to them and not have more advantages given to one side. (I hope that makes sense, I can clarify if not)
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Aenima
Apprentice
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:02 am

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#5 Post by Aenima » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:13 am

luminier wrote:Revenants were changed from being incorporeal after I reported it so that isn't an issue anymore. But, that is strange (strange to me) that it would be decided that it is important to buff a creature that is already very difficult to kill especially with two ghouls in tow and a cleric or two with it.
ah okay, didn't know that
Think for yourself. Question authority.

louis
Champion
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:10 am
Location: The dark void

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#6 Post by louis » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:36 am

Hi, the game developers always try have a close eye on balance and keep things as balanced as possbile, but of course we can fail every now and then.

So, if you feel disadvantaged or have problems in pvp by other means, post it here, can't harm at all - as long as you VOTE!!! :mrgreen:

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#7 Post by Delia » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:50 am

Forgetting balance for a while handing out advantages to the Sathonites can be seen as very logical IC, they do their job well, their god gathers power, both Arborea and Elvandar cover in their presence and they can almost freely do and go about what and where they wish. They should be powerful. This all purely from an in-game perspective. Long-term game balance is another matter of course and I haven't seen these new buffs yet. Good thing the revenant buff was removed. It was ridiculously rough :D
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Aedainu
Newbie
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:49 am

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#8 Post by Aedainu » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:57 am

For years, the ability to hold someone in a room in PVP has been the unique ability to a certain guild that has few combat related advantages. This ability came with numerous draw backs which were only increased in the last year or two. Unfortunately, this ability has been abused in the past through a loop-hole / bad roleplay, but that is neither here nor there. The issue I see is that another guild, with far more PVP power and superiority has been given this same ability without nearly the same drawbacks to using it.

In summation, a unique guild ability has been usurped by another guild that is powerful enough without it, and this guild doesn't have the drawbacks to suffer through as the first must.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#9 Post by Delia » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:40 am

Given bonespear also keeps you in a room in addition to good damage, bleeding and removing use of some specials which was very annoying as a shao, it can sound a little rough. Personally I do not see any fundamental problems with mimicking something another guild does. If they do it gazillions times better with just a flick of a wrist it might be an issue, I agree.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#10 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:04 am

One thing worth mentioning is that in my time in the game, everytime a thread like this comes up, theres always eventually a post telling everyone to calm down. Saying that the game is always shifting in balance, and that we should all take it easy and roll with the punches.

I think the reason this event is different than other times something similar has happened, is that the evils are doing well in PVP, they are not being overwhelmed by the forces of good, yet they are getting increased powers.

Also worth saying again, I love change in the game, sometimes things get stagnant, changing the effects of a miracle or even adding a new one can have a huge impact on guild playability. But again any advantage needs to be counterbalanced with equal disadvantage, else the change is not a change but rather a buff. And if one guild is buffed, later another guild will be buffed, then another, eventually everybody else gets left behind.
Meow

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#11 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:04 am

My pardons Louis, I didn't mean to call anyone out but I did feel that it was necessary to voice my opinion.

Perhaps Ill post the balance problems I see to get the ball rolling and everyone else can post theirs as well.

The Sathonites are a very very powerful guild and they should be because they are evil and up against everyone who is good. I know in the past the Sathonites have been adjusted based on their player numbers because they are such a powerful guild and this makes it likely the most heavily changed guild in the game. I don't agree with making them stronger while they are clearly ahead in the PVP department though. Change is great, I love changes. Buffing when they are not in need of a buff is bad.

For this "new" miracle, I don't know anything about it beyond the fact that it has the ability to trap people, it seems like a very powerful miracle. The Sathonites already have the ability to pin people in rooms because of bone spear and I felt that having bone spear be a critical chance for pinning was fair.

Now I don't know this for sure so take my words following with a grain of salt. It seems like trap is on the level of the thief spikes. The thieves have chosen to not automatically be butt buddies of the Sathonites (I think as was intended at the start of the guild) and because the Sathonites are now missing out on this benefit from allying with thieves they were given this miracle to trap people. Another reason for it might be that Luminier tends to "fight evil" by attacking and retreating much like Mongolians of history, and it is effective because I don't have to rely on protection from miracles to "maybe" resist a miracle I can just avoid getting hit by a miracle completely by moving away. If this trap miracle traps me and say my unicorn, I am not only prevented from escaping, but at the mercy of whatever else might be in the room... revenants, ghouls, miracles from other clerics... especially because I heard the miracle casts very quickly. While I've never personally experienced the miracle lacking the ability to run away is -always- very bad. In my experience every time I have been blocked, I die in PVP. The caltrops are a specialized item that are available to thieves and is quite difficult to get. Once you get it, you must carry it around... which weighs down your character making them more susceptible to damage. Once you drop them the "trapping" effect affects you as well. As far as I know, none of these "cons" are affecting the Sathonites miracle. Seems strange IMO.

Next up, cursing. Curse is a very very powerful miracle that enables a cleric to attack the "stats" of another player and renders them quite weaker than normal (one curse sets me back about one and a half deaths in terms of stats). On top of that it is impossible to resist via magic protection (not sure why) and it provides an "area of effect" type of infliction. Meaning that if a person is hit, them and everyone in their row and their adjacent row is hit by this miracle. This makes it possible to avoid IF you know the target, which is impossible to tell because clerics can target anyone without any indication of the target, until it is too late. The only other area of effect spell in the game is holy word and holy word hurts very little, has a small chance of making the foe run and takes a good amount of time to cast. Curse has a smaller area of effect that is true (does not hit all three rows unless the target is in the second row) but it is much more powerful and shares a similar cast time with holy word.

Next up, undead. I understand that undead are made stronger via the skills of the Sathonites and that is fine, I don't mind strong undead. I don't even mind that if I am in wimpy, with a shield and every protection spell I can have I can still be instantly killed by the undead that the Sathonites raise. What is important to keep in mind is that not everyone is Luminier. I honestly don't know how anyone -else- is expected to fight undead that are very strong and have big two handed weapons that can kill you very quickly without the right defense. Luminier is likely one of the more skilled characters in the MUD and if he has trouble with undead it would be nearly impossible for another weaker character to fight the undead and live long enough to kill it... or kill it at all.

But poLumi! Tanielites can just instantly turn these undead and they are destroyed! Don't forget those dastardly Shaolin!
This has not been my experience. Tanielites have a very hard time cturning undead that are as powerful as these ones. At present the best they can usually only make them run away. I can not remember the last time I saw a Tanielite turn any Sathonite undead. Not to mention the recent changes to Tanielites makes them -very- susceptible to being killed in one hit since they only have robes.

Shaolin are very good against undead this is true. They are even more susceptible to being killed in one hit than a Crusader because of the lack of armour they must use in order to use their abilities. Not to mention that attacking evil is an RP choice of Shaolin. They are not under any RP obligation to fight evil or undead.

Next up, revenants. Revenants were changed recently to include some new miracles which really spices up the diversity and I love it. There were some changes I felt were not as good though, namely allowing revenants the ability to block exits and the ability to become incorporeal. The latter was removed but the former (to my knowledge) was kept in. As I said before, blocking is very very powerful and when you place a revenant in an area where you can't scout ahead easily or an area with only one escape a character can die very very quickly to a combination of revenant and ghouls, especially the ones that seem to be able to kill in one hit. Revenants are very fast and powerful and if they are blocking an exit it is nearly impossible to escape. Like I mentioned before, Luminier needs to be fully prepared to not get killed instantly from these undead... what chance to others have? =P

Next up, Taniel Clerics. As some of the wizards may know, I was a -staunch- defender to the armour change for Taniel Clerics. Their clerical robes make them -laughably- easy to fight in PVP combat. When I informed the guildwiz at the time this was refuted saying that "if I 'really wanted' to wear chainmail, I should get some customs". Why can't people who want to wear robes get customs? An 18 gold robe is much easier than spending hundreds of gold and over 10kg of mithril on getting fully mithril chainmail. Also why would you offer less choice in the armour selection as opposed to more? Chainmails and cloth? Sounds cool to me. And why throw out good code? I bet a lot of time was spent writing descriptions and creating the process for the creation of the chainmails. It seems like a -disgusting- waste to simply make them unavailable to the Taniel's. I believe we should promoting diversity in playing styles not limiting one guild to a certain style while giving other guilds many styles. This is especially noticeable in the guilds that have a heavy PVP style. And oh I realize that Sathonites only have access to bonemail armours and if they want to ask and or provide descriptions for new armours I believe they should receive!

Of course, this is all IMO. And please don't take any of this the wrong way, I just wanted to accurately voice my opinion. Feel free to respond but do so in a calm way =D we're all just talking here!
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#12 Post by Delia » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:14 am

Any shaolin worth his or her salt will work to fight the undead as they are something that should not be but fighting evil on a general level is more of a choice as existence of evil has its place.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#13 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:21 am

Delia wrote:Any shaolin worth his or her salt will work to fight the undead as they are something that should not be but fighting evil on a general level is more of a choice as existence of evil has its place.
You are right, that is true. I welcome all the Shaolin to help fight some undeadlies then! =D
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#14 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:30 am

I would really like to hear from poPhelan and poLucifer and poOthercurrentsathonites, to see what they feel theyre pvp stance is right now. Do they see why others think these buffs are too much? Is the excess power noticeable on that end? Or does it still feel like overwhelming loss in PVP?

As far as I see it, if Luminier were to stop playing today the good guys would stand no chance whatsoever. But phelan without lucifer, or lucifer without phelan would still be fairly successful. If a side cannot stand on its own through the loss of one player, that to me is too much.
Meow

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#15 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:38 am

ganandorf wrote:As far as I see it, if Luminier were to stop playing today the good guys would stand no chance whatsoever. But phelan without lucifer, or lucifer without phelan would still be fairly successful. If a side cannot stand on its own through the loss of one player, that to me is too much.
Thats not really what I am trying to get at here. Player numbers will always fluctuate and I am not disputing that. I am one of the only "goodie" players left so obviously if I stopped playing they would be at a disadvantage. But it isn't the number of players I am finding unfair or imbalanced, it is the advantages given to those players.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#16 Post by Delia » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:58 am

Not many shaos around...and given how unwilling people are to learn the staff and other stuff and how the good stuff is high-end shaos only you'll have to cope without shao support I fear. The undead can be quite discouraging as you said :)

Without the warding spell Delia would be promptly cut to pieces by the giant undead which are as common as goblins. Actually doing any damage to them falls squarely on the crusaders currently. That said, balance tends to be adjusted for the powerful in mind. Midlevel characters do not have much to say other than having a peek from the far back rows :)

This said, I have long felt the increased pressure to make min-max choices as a player instead of subpar rp choices just to avoid being from casually swatted against the wall in PvP. I'd hate to have her become more of a fighter than she already is. I am not complaining, do not misunderstand me. I am just saying it can feel a bit rough sometimes. Many powerful characters make the game quite erratic at times.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#17 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:12 am

Delia wrote:Not many shaos around...
Not many of most guilds around! Which is why the guilds that are powerful as individuals are doing so well!
Meow

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#18 Post by luminier » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:14 am

ganandorf wrote:
Delia wrote:Not many shaos around...
Not many of most guilds around! Which is why the guilds that are powerful as individuals are doing so well!
I would argue that they are powerful not only because they are powerful as individuals (because they usually have to be <- important) but also because of the advantages given to them and the advantages taken away from their opposition.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
Allurana
Hero
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:05 pm

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#19 Post by Allurana » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:17 am

Personally I've not been a fan of watchtowers/unicorns/revenants/superstrong undead for similar reasons as Delia mentioned. It feels like it puts those two guilds leagues ahead of more mundane characters in PvP conflict. It wouldn't really surprise me if watchtowers and undeads were the leading cause of PC deaths in PvP conflict. Possibly the most annoying thing of this is the ability to set them up, log off, and have people passively killed on the things.

Fortunately I've rarely had to deal with both, so I'll leave the subject of whether they're a fair/good design as whole to the opinion of those that actually have to contend with it regularly.

ganandorf
Overlord
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 10:35 am
Location: winnipeg, canada

Re: Balance issues - PVP

#20 Post by ganandorf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:21 am

Well Sathonites need to be put ahead of the other guilds, I feel. Because if they are on equal footing as all the other guilds, then the problem comes up that Crusaders, taniel clerics, rangers, and shaolin are all in one team, and you have the sathonites on their own without any alliances.
Meow

Post Reply