Balance issues - PVP

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Delia
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#81 Post by Delia » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:23 am

Now having an evil mage is a distinct possibility, before it was not just because how and where the learning centers are(scribes, alchemists). But still it kinda requires you to play the good guy suddenly turning evil when you have high enough skills. It will be that way as long as evil has no other options than get their learning from good/neutral side. Personally I have long felt the urge to quit the scribes just because they are in Arborea and I do not mean this new hassle that has been going on. It is an elven thing :)
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#82 Post by luminier » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:32 am

It sounds like you guys don't like when Crusaders ride in and out of combat with unicorns.

I personally don't like it when I have to "fight" someone while they are just defending themselves and standing in one spot.

But you like your style. And I like my style. And now you have something that counters my style. I have nothing that counters yours.

Huzzah balance.
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#83 Post by Rudolpho » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:33 am

fernao wrote:- Are the rogues an occupational guild? to my knowledge, NO
Yeah, so your knowledge is incorrect. Check the guild page on the website.

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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#84 Post by Zehren » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:34 am

fernao wrote:
rex wrote:Blindfighting 100 should make you on equal playing ground with an enemy who can see in my opinion. If it does not then that does need to change.
Almost, but not quite. Darkness should still prevent you from using specials, initiate combat other than with area effects and lower the effectiveness of aim a bit. But there should not be any other malus besides those with blindfighting 100.
I support blindfighting 100 negating any effects of darkness. Seeing as some blind people IRL have managed to teach themselves some form of echolocation, I find this realistic enough.

Also, an extremely simply way of countering the traps would be some manner of PUSHING OTHERS INTO NEARBY ROOMS, AND HAVING THE TRAP MIRACLES WORK AS A CIRCLE AROUND THE CLERIC. AHMYGAWD.

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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#85 Post by fernao » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:48 am

luminier wrote:It sounds like you guys don't like when Crusaders ride in and out of combat with unicorns.

I personally don't like it when I have to "fight" someone while they are just defending themselves and standing in one spot.

But you like your style. And I like my style. And now you have something that counters my style. I have nothing that counters yours.

Huzzah balance.
Well, then one suggestion could be that the use of the trap miracle is incompatible with mood defend. Either the miracle cannot be used in mood defend, or using it forces a mood change. Similar actions are known with the berserk miracle or the effects of ghoul hunger.
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#86 Post by rex » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:51 am

fernao wrote: Same is true for a single satho against a closed and defended tower. So I see no problem there.
If you are referring to Crusader watchtowers then I see a huge difference that isn't even worth going into. If you are referring to the Tower of Pain then there is a HUGE difference. You have three guards to go through. We have 50+ undeads. Five of the rooms alone are more difficult then fighting the 3 guards. And I agree with archangel that some change would be nice but probably a lot of work.
fernao wrote: Same is true for us sathos when a bunch of crusis and taniels was awake. We gotta spend hours upon hours to clean up after you
Interesting comment here. What exactly are you cleaning up after us? The bones we left behind?
fernao wrote: Hmm, standard strategy experienced from the satho point of view is charge by unicorn mounted crusi, ride off of crusi mounted unicorn, rinse and repeat. If we manage to harm the crusi or the unicorn, the get a cleric buddy heal them fully, and almost with no delay its back to charge and ride off. And if the mounted crusi stays for a bit, well, unicorns are damn tough to kill, deal quite some damage and cannot be blocked. So yes, you are used to get in and out at your will without hindrance.
One, Unicorns can be blocked. Two, the reason we use this tactic on you is because there is no one else around to help us. We would be idiots to stand there and let you spam bone spears at us all day. Three, you already have methods of preventing our unicorns from running and they have been used previously. And yes I agree hit and running is a lame tactic as well. We both are using lame tactics right now in my opinion.

The problem with trap in my opinion is its going to prevent people from wanting to pvp with a cleric unless they know that they can beat the cleric downright. It can also allow large teams to use the miracle and ruin the chance of a player fleeing from the area to run to safety when ambushed. Perhaps the only change needed it to make it take longer to cast the miracle.

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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#87 Post by ganandorf » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:01 am

At the bare minimum I'd hope this trap miracle not compatible with a revenant in the room.... Having stood behind a revenant in pvp multiple times, I know how ridiculously overpowered this would be from personal experience.

Also what is the purpose of the miracle pain even existing, if not the exact situation trap was created for?

I think that if all the wizards have looked over this new miracle, and some of the other recent changes to the guilds and decided that it is fair, then perhaps it is fair. And that being on just one of the sides you can't fully appreciate how fair it really is. but from the wizards throne, it can be appreciated.
Last edited by ganandorf on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#88 Post by luminier » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:03 am

fernao wrote:Well, then one suggestion could be that the use of the trap miracle is incompatible with mood defend. Either the miracle cannot be used in mood defend, or using it forces a mood change. Similar actions are known with the berserk miracle or the effects of ghoul hunger.
So mood wimpy then?


Anyways Lets all just stop biting each others heads off and chill for a moment. Let the vibe flow.
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#89 Post by Allurana » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:33 am

I had a text wall for my thoughts, but I'm going to try to cut it down for easy reading:

1. This trap won't affect just "good team vs. evil team" but also "solo cleric vs. solo melee fighter" and everything between. I'd be sad if "1v1" PvP gets marginalized for "team v. team" PvP. I think both are fun and both should be equally viable/possible.

2. What might be "balancing" against a unicorn-riding Crusader might be "overkill" for a Shaolin, Ranger, guildless fighter, or anything else of less exceptional stock.

3. Clerics using the "(buffed) chain/platemail + (buffed) shield + hardened robe/tunic + mood defend" strategy can be very hard to hit for the average melee fighter.

4. Miracles don't miss (as far as I know), and magic resistance is hard to come by, so most people will be hit with the miracle's full power, whatever that may be at the time.

5. From my experiences fighting as a cleric or against a cleric, 1-3 smite/bspear/hfire/whatevers often can send survival-prone characters running.

6. Sometimes hit and run tactics, as annoying as they are, are the only way some characters can hope to stand against a "turtlecaster", as I affectionately dub them.

7. I have nothing against Sathos in particular. My worry is all three clergies equally.

8. Perhaps the cleric that casts trap could be unable to cast other miracles until trap expires. This allows the trapped person at least a fighting chance to survive against a solo cleric, instead of just being a sitting duck for miracle-assault from the trap-caster.

9. Perhaps trap can have a short enough duration to not allow a cleric to cast it and then proceed to kill the trapped character with miracle-assault.

10. I have no experience with this trap miracle, don't have any idea how long it lasts, and don't have any cleric buddies to test it with, so forgive ignorance I may have of "true facts".

Lastly:
- Are the rogues an occupational guild? to my knowledge, NO
ICly, yes, yes they are. How they are coded OOCly should not alter their IC role in the game.

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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#90 Post by Delia » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:41 am

Just a brief say about the endless revenant vs. watchtower issue from Delia's view.

Watchtowers against a high agility low encumberance target seem really bad. I never felt threatened by them the couple of times D was a crusader enemy(might be they have been tweaked afterwards, I do not know). Seems like low agi, slow and generally younger characters are more affected by them to the point of instant death.

Against a single revenant the most likely scenario is to become diseased atleast so they manage to present more threat(fail escape, fall down and nastiness ensues)when speaking only of running past them. And no, cleric buddy/run to shrine autoheal does not work for everybody.

Again not complaining, this is how it should be IMO that revenants continue to pose more a threat. Also some things are simply better against some things than others.
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#91 Post by fernao » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:50 am

Well, Lucifer certainly is a high agi char low encumbrance char. And I died at least a dozen times to crusader towers. True, not ever bolt hits, not every bolt that hits is instantly fatal or critical. Neither is a revenant on its own.
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#92 Post by Allurana » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:56 am

Revenants may not be able to insta-kill, but giant/ogre ghouls with 2-handed weapons certainly can, and have many times.

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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#93 Post by Delia » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:59 am

As I said, they might have been buffed afterwards or Delia was just plain lucky not to get hit and there were enough attempts but this has been my experience. Becoming diseased can be more of a hassle than suffering a non-mortal bolt hit :)
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#94 Post by fernao » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:59 am

Allurana wrote:Revenants may not be able to insta-kill, but giant/ogre ghouls with 2-handed weapons certainly can, and have many times.
No objection there. But revenants and armed giant undeads are two pair of shoes so to speak.
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#95 Post by Phelan » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:29 am

Just a brief say about the endless revenant vs. watchtower issue from Delia's view.

Watchtowers against a high agility low encumberance target seem really bad. I never felt threatened by them the couple of times D was a crusader enemy(might be they have been tweaked afterwards, I do not know). Seems like low agi, slow and generally younger characters are more affected by them to the point of instant death.
Watchtowers instakilled Phelan more than once. They are deadly even for him.
I fail to see how a Taniel wearing /CLOTHES/ beats a plate-wearing, darkness-using Sathonite who can curse their mental and physical stats into newbie levels, more or less effectively neutering their fighting. Same with Asrals. Darkness, curse, win.
I suppose you haven't played neither a Taniel nor Asral cleric. I assure you both can kill Phelan in a One on One fight easilly (if it is a char of about the same size). And against Warriors I can't tell more without revealing too much information. It is all about playing smart. Your comment shows that you wouldn't know how to play a Cleric agains a Satho.

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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#96 Post by Nathan » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:35 am

I personally always had the feeling, that being a cleric is mostly useless in PvP, you can do some preparations in advance if you are lucky, but that's it, in combat action your miracles are are totally useless against "joggers". In PvP you are simply reduced to your pure melee or missile abilities, imho.

This new miracle might pose a new hurdle to all hit and runners, but honestly, does that bring more imbalance? Or does it just balance an issue that should have been solved since years already? I personally - just to explain the other side - never understood why miracle-requests should not work while the char is moving, while every other combat tactic works fine in hit and run.

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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#97 Post by anglachel » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:41 am

luminier wrote: But you like your style. And I like my style. And now you have something that counters my style. I have nothing that counters yours.

Huzzah balance.
If you habe idea, just suggest it. Ideas for new features are always welcome :idea: . For ervery side! Evil, good, neutral or what else.

But plases not such ideas, like the 'breath of death'. :roll: You inhale much and then realease the breath and all in the room fall down to ground and die :!:

I would prefer small, may be funny things. Not only something to make damage and help to kill the others.

If everyome havemany small usefull gadgets, you will get automatical a bit balance. For 1:1 PvP or group fight eveil vs good.

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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#98 Post by luminier » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:06 am

Nathan wrote:I personally always had the feeling, that being a cleric is mostly useless in PvP, you can do some preparations in advance if you are lucky, but that's it, in combat action your miracles are are totally useless against "joggers". In PvP you are simply reduced to your pure melee or missile abilities, imho.

This new miracle might pose a new hurdle to all hit and runners, but honestly, does that bring more imbalance? Or does it just balance an issue that should have been solved since years already? I personally - just to explain the other side - never understood why miracle-requests should not work while the char is moving, while every other combat tactic works fine in hit and run.
Why is your tactic fine, but mine is not?
anglachel wrote:I would prefer small, may be funny things. Not only something to make damage and help to kill the others.

If everyome havemany small usefull gadgets, you will get automatical a bit balance. For 1:1 PvP or group fight eveil vs good.
I can think of some suggestions. Do you want some for all the guilds (all nonclerics) that have been put at a disadvantage?
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#99 Post by Zehren » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:14 am

Post moved to relevanter thread.
Last edited by Zehren on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Balance issues - PVP

#100 Post by fernao » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:18 am

luminier wrote:
Nathan wrote:I personally always had the feeling, that being a cleric is mostly useless in PvP, you can do some preparations in advance if you are lucky, but that's it, in combat action your miracles are are totally useless against "joggers". In PvP you are simply reduced to your pure melee or missile abilities, imho.

This new miracle might pose a new hurdle to all hit and runners, but honestly, does that bring more imbalance? Or does it just balance an issue that should have been solved since years already? I personally - just to explain the other side - never understood why miracle-requests should not work while the char is moving, while every other combat tactic works fine in hit and run.
Why is your tactic fine, but mine is not?
From what I take, Nathan was pointing out that maybe the fact that you could do such a hit and run tactic in the first place is the problem and that the trap miracle is a remedy for that.

Put in another way, IF e.g. all specials and such would work like miracles, meaning you can start initiating the action, have to wait for it to finish and then it gets released it wouldn't be a problem. Meaning, you enter, then you start to prepare your gore, which takes x seconds, then gore is exectuted, or you have to be in the same room as your target, then you can start loading the bow and shoot the arrow it would be fine. Or, clerics can prepare their miracle and run around without losing the ability to trigger it, it would be even grounds, as it is, the trap miracle returns a bit of even grounds to a prior uneven situation.
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