Where and what is Neutrality?

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adanath
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Re: Where and what is Neutrality?

#41 Post by adanath » Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:55 pm

anglachel wrote: Now the point alliance.
The Asral clerics can be make a alliance with every guild in the mud. There are no restriction in my opinion. It is the duty of guildleaders to decide which is best option to reach the goals of church.

If there is conflict between to guilds, the guildleader should think which side should be support, even then this side want no support.
There are there possibilities:
- It is not form interest, which side wins because the will no advantages or disadvantages for the Asral Church. Then do nothing.
- If a defeat of one side is an advantages for the guild, then attack the other side. If a victory for one side is disadvantages for the Asral guild, so
attack this side.
- Last possibility is attack both side then it makes sense

The balance of power is no goal of for the Asral Guild. It is not from interest if the 'evil' or 'good' is stronger so long the interest of Aral guild are not affect. Of course it can be a political decision to support the weaker side to have more possibilities, but this must decide the guildleader in case for case.
Wouldn't it naturally be in the interest of Asral to ally against the Crusaders if they want to destroy them, but always tend against the Sathos, due to the very issue of Asral taking in the humans from Sathonys, and the insects of "Sathonys" that are continually sent to war against them? I could see more complacency with Lilith followers or apathy towards self interest.

I do think more "neutral pulling" actions would indeed help reconcile the idea of neutrality and karma currently, because if an Asral's karma is "holy" then really pretty bad things beyond excuse and honour in many cases need be done to "neutralize" it. This creates a natural conflict with any good guilds, while evil guilds couldn't care less, which I think hurts the nature of the idea of Asral's hatred towards Sathonys, and Sathonys' towards Asral. It increases hatred of the more "holy" guilds because sure slightly good people even they believe are protected and should be, neutral is not much different, but when "neutral" is continually doing "evil" acts (just to stay in favour with their God really, when those aren't acts that even pull towards their God's idea of what is good, they are just extreme acts counteracting each other).

Geas has a lot of great players, Asrals, Sathos, Crusaders, Rangers, Thieves...there is a lot of depth in a lot of these characters and that is what makes it such a fun mud. I do things I wish I hadn't done with mine sometimes that I try to work on for the betterment of the environment, and so do most all the players here I have had experience with. It is wonderful. Just wanted to get that off my chest to say, I don't think it is even a problem with roleplaying persay so much as limitations to doing any karmitic acts that lend to neutrality.

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Allurana
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Re: Where and what is Neutrality?

#42 Post by Allurana » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:36 pm

adanath wrote:I could see more complacency with Lilith followers...
Even that would be an issue, I think. Kyir being the most prominent example. The Asralites have a bad history with just about everyone but Zhakrin. Maybe you could argue Evren in there, but when looking at Evren aspects vs. Asral aspects, I feel they'd be more likely to oppose one another (idealistically if not violently) than cooperate.

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luminier
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Re: Where and what is Neutrality?

#43 Post by luminier » Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:27 pm

Actually if you read the lore, humans fought against the dwarves before the insects appeared, then later allied. So if the humans were following Asral then, the humans might have pissed off some dwarven Zhakrinites as well.



Why is it that OOC consideration is being taken into place IC?

I really don't like hearing that evils are being more cooperative than they really ought to be because they want access to guilds in Arborea.

IMO when you go evil, you get some benefits that others wouldn't normally have and you lose -more- benefits than you gain. But isn't that the point? If you choose to be evil, people should -treat- you that way, and you should have less rights and privileges than good people do. If you are evil and people treat you as a normal person... that's not right.

I mean really, whats the point in being good if when you are evil you get all the benefits that the goodies/neutrals enjoy as well as all the evil benefits?

Where as it seems like most goodies only get their goodie benefits and seem to be losing more and more neutral benefits and obviously never have access to the evil benefits.
Sounds like having cake and eating it too... -again-. :(
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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Re: Where and what is Neutrality?

#44 Post by Zehren » Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:36 pm

luminier wrote:Actually if you read the lore, humans fought against the dwarves before the insects appeared, then later allied. So if the humans were following Asral then, the humans might have pissed off some dwarven Zhakrinites as well.



Why is it that OOC consideration is being taken into place IC?

I really don't like hearing that evils are being more cooperative than they really ought to be because they want access to guilds in Arborea.

IMO when you go evil, you get some benefits that others wouldn't normally have and you lose -more- benefits than you gain. But isn't that the point? If you choose to be evil, people should -treat- you that way, and you should have less rights and privileges than good people do. If you are evil and people treat you as a normal person... that's not right.

I mean really, whats the point in being good if when you are evil you get all the benefits that the goodies/neutrals enjoy as well as all the evil benefits?

Where as it seems like most goodies only get their goodie benefits and seem to be losing more and more neutral benefits and obviously never have access to the evil benefits.
Sounds like having cake and eating it too... -again-. :(
Just clone Luminier and wage war.
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luminier
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Re: Where and what is Neutrality?

#45 Post by luminier » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:31 pm

Zehren wrote:Just clone Luminier and wage war.
Guess Ill hire Delia and have her magic some exact clones of me and place them around Forostar.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

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Re: Where and what is Neutrality?

#46 Post by lanyara » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:56 am

> if a warcleric kills a (neutral!) gwenite he gets a message
> like "yeah! killem all!", but after killing 3 or 5 of them
> your karma is out of order and your miracles out of effect.

This is a key description.

Imagine the situation at hand.

You have a cleric of Asral who goes on a slaughter spree against Gwennies, because supposedly that will please Asral.

Asral tells that cleric "Oh yeah boy, you are doing truly great, just great! KILL THEM ALL!!!" so the cleric happily continues, knowing that Asral must be greatly pleased when all those pesky Gwennies are being purged from Forostar.

Then suddenly that cleric hears a slight, godly clear of throat after having done so.

That cleric turns around to face Asral, who is blushing quite a bit, before he shyly adds:

"Uhm... I am truly sorry man, really absolutely sorry, completely sorry, forever sorry, I will be really so sorry for the rest of the days, but .. you know... you should have killed only 3 Gwennies, not right 10 of them. That was really excessive! Sure, they are enemies, I hate them, but ... I mean... kill the rest of 'em another day, will ya? Show some restraint ... Now I also have to admit, I am rather angry at you, come to think about it. You really should have not killed them all! Of course they are evil scum, I hate Gwen so much! They must all die! ... but did you really have to kill them all right now? Could you just not have... I don't know... killed a bit less than that? Like only one or two per day? I am really angry now, come to think about it, so you know what ... your aura is now absolutely awful! I don't like this at all! You are so evil, why are you even a cleric of Asral! I am going to ignore your miracles now, until you bribed some beggars... I mean, donated to charity... to undo this sinful and mindless slaughtering of Gwennies you did before!"

*insert an angry stare from Asral here before Asral continues to speak*

Of course I have no idea why I, the god of war, enjoy that you give money to the poor, but ... uhmm ... I kinda do! I guess we gods all think that this is good ... except for Lilith and Sathonys, they don't like it if you bribe the group of beggars in Arborea, even if they will provide you with specific information about the weakness... No, that way of information-gathering is not liked, they only like if you torture 'em victims! When you killed too many Gwennies, you see, I ... I just don't like you anymore, so now go bribe the beggars... I mean, donate to charity... Yeah. That's what I, the god of war, want of you to do so that I like you more again. Go donate to charity now! (Pause)

What! You don't have any money with ya?! Whatcha mean ... money should not be of interest to a cleric of Asral? WHAT?! You believe that a cleric of Asral can be a poor creature and need not be rich?!?! What are you thinking!!! Are you out of your mind!!! How else are you going to suppose to remove your heavily tainted aura then if you can't bribe the beggars? Sure, some of these beggars could be assassins... I mean, they just sit at marketplaces at daytime but at night perhaps they run their sneaky business or slave trafficking, I really dunno. It does not interest me!!! Go kill something after you did donate!!!!!

Oh well, alright, alright ... you really have no money, so let's see... hmmm. I know! Do what everyone else does then - go kill undead. I like this a lot ...

I am not sure why I, the god of war and death http://www.geas.de/?page_id=228#asral like it if you destroy undead... in the old days I would have thought that killing strong trolls, giants, ogres or crusaders would please me much more... but ever since I am feeling so strange in my head, I think that killing undead is the way to go now. Yep, the only way to go now! Go fix your standing with me, puny cleric! Go destroy undead! And stop killing all those Gwennies, it annoys the hell outta me!!!"

That cleric, stilly, suddenly becomes very meek, stuttering

"Oh Lord but ... uhm... did you not tell me right before that I should kill all those annoying evil Gwennies, and now you ... you ... you suddenly tell me that I have killed too many of them?" *confused look on that cleric's face*

So now let's step back and leave that poor cleric alone for a moment and instead look at the underlying system.

You have here a system in where on the one hand the system specifically tells you how to act for a cleric of Asral ("kill Gwennies"), yet when you do so you get punished because of the karma system tagging you as evil and "out of karma sync" eventually due to the "ideal" alignment of Asral with neutral karma (slightly evil).

I thus ask you - what is wrong with this picture?

Is the player at fault or is the system at fault?

And if the system is at fault, why is it not fixed?
Best race: halflings.

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