Faith from sermons and teaming

[Aslak]

Hello,

I noticed the current system of gaining and loosing faith is a very quick paced one. You can switch gods faster then you can your underpants, and most often you do so without even wanting it or really doing anything against the principles of your god.

There is little "buffer" you can have with your faith if one of the following happens. Even if the NPC priest tells you that you are in good favour, I more often then not had faithtroubles afterwards:

1) Listen to a few lines of a sermon held by a priest.
The gain of faith you get by a priest, is gigantic. A single sermon of a priest of my god got me from almost no faith to maximum faith easily every time. I assume sermons from other gods have the same effect. This is quite problematic if you accidently listen to a sermon (or just some part of it) as you will inevitably switch faith afterwards. Compared to the gain of faith you get from sacrifices (at least for Asral), it does outweight anything you can do with them by far.

2) Team with people of enemy faiths
Also the loss of own faith if you team (by accident) with someone of an enemy faith is quite harsh. Even a few minutes to show a way or be shown a way is often enough to loose enough faith to trigger the "no god" countdown a little later. As you get no indication at all if teaming with someone is a problem for your god, it is quite hard to avoid if you do not stupidly ask everytime you team. Again, the faithloss seems to be far outweightening the gain your get from sacrifices.

Since the pool for faith seems to be quite small, it is extremly easy to switch faith, if your want or not. I do not think it is a good system, specially since it also punishes a char similar to a death.
Also I think it would take more to convince someone to give up the god you follow to choose a different one then a few words from a priest. It would make a more consistant world if you could also work together with someone your god does not like if needed without having to worry about loosing all your faith, if one the other hand you always lived a life of your god.

My suggestion would be to first greatly reduce the gain of faith from sermons (of gods you have no faith in). This would still allow for priests to replenish their own faith, which I assume they require for casting spells, but it would not endanger everyone else listening to a sermon.

Also, other ways to gain and loose faith should be reduced by quite a fair amount (or the pool for max faith increased) so that single actions would not make your loose your faith or fill it up completly with listening to a few lines of sermon.

Also, I did notice that if you logout the mud after triggering a faithchange event, but before you got the first msg, and relog later, you get all those faithwarning messages within maybe a minute to switch faith immidiantly then.

[Zehren]

I think the general effects of sermons ought be vastly reduced.

In my experiences, though, the faith loss from teaming with an enemy is well-paced.

[louis]

Agreed considering ambush preaching, but teaming with enemy faiths, that - imo - shall not be a trivial offence for your god. So I personally tend to disagree there. If you as e.g a Gwennite team with an Asralite, you must be aware, that this is _massively_ disregarded, and should only happen once in your lifetime;)

[adanath]

Yeah I almost feel as if you team with an enemy and you should instantly feel wrath from your God somehow. People tend to be ambivalent enough about faith.

[Aslak]

Then you should at least get a message that your god gets angry with you BEFORE it is too late. There are enough people without a faith sign on their forehead.

[isengoo]

Do people actually ambush preach? I always make sure people are at least aware I'm in the room before I start. If someone rests in a public square and doesn't pay attention, I can't help that. It's my job to preach! Feel the Asral groove, man.

[Zehren]

Agreed considering ambush preaching, but teaming with enemy faiths, that - imo - shall not be a trivial offence for your god. So I personally tend to disagree there. If you as e.g a Gwennite team with an Asralite, you must be aware, that this is _massively_ disregarded, and should only happen once in your lifetime;)

LOVE EVERYONE EVEN IF IT HURTS.

The act of teaming is one that has multiple OOC views, by the way, and is as such somewhat problematic. One view, as expressed in legal IC garble, is that teaming is the act of teaming up to fight things. A second one is that teaming up refers to acting like a group, travelling and such. And a third, which I strongly liked back when Zehren was less distant, was that the teaming mechanic ought cover any act of being together, so, if eating dinner with someone, you should be teamed.

Teaming with enemies is somewhat problematic in that one might not be aware of it, too. Disregarding *what* teaming is.

[Allurana]

Do people actually ambush preach?

Yes, I had such a case happen to me only a few weeks ago.

[Eluriel]

Then you should at least get a message that your god gets angry with you BEFORE it is too late. There are enough people without a faith sign on their forehead.

Could we maybe get a warning that an action of ours is angering our god? This would help in case of accidentally teaming with someone you didn't know was of an opposite faith. Although, it might make it harder for those trying to be covert about their faith--an instant message to a Tanielite that something is angering their god, "Hm, who am I teamed with currently? Ah ha, so-and-so must be a Lilithian!"

[Allurana]

Draining Asralite faith as a covert Gwennie is always a fun pastime.

[adanath]

Then you should at least get a message that your god gets angry with you BEFORE it is too late. There are enough people without a faith sign on their forehead.

Could we maybe get a warning that an action of ours is angering our god? This would help in case of accidentally teaming with someone you didn't know was of an opposite faith. Although, it might make it harder for those trying to be covert about their faith--an instant message to a Tanielite that something is angering their god, "Hm, who am I teamed with currently? Ah ha, so-and-so must be a Lilithian!"

I think the thing is everything can't be cookie cutter, and truthfully before you team with someone you should learn what their religious alignment is. This game is centered around religion not like our world. There isn't much place for relativism within the gods, things are very absolute in terms of what they like and do not (there are some grey areas), for instance holy gods hate thieving, and killing innocents and good people, you can't just justify it ic, because the gods see your actions. Just so since everything is so god-focused, really before teaming with anyone a char should come to know them a little. In our world faith may be private, but in this world it is very evident.

(obviously some relativism can be rp'd) I just mean it is a very open part of this game that cannot be ignored. The effects and presence of gods is both real, and seen and evidenced thousands of times daily. Clothes many times give things away, along with a quick question. Asking about gods in Geas I find akin to asking about sports teams in this world..it is something that can't be hidden easily, though it can be lied about (unless a priest catches you)

Same thing with Karma and such, your karma doesn't just drop randomly, you are doing something or around someone doing something, it's not a bug, or something odd with the game, your god does not like something you are doing.

[Allurana]

I'd be hesitant to change the enemy faith teaming system. It's harsh, but it's supposed to be. Followers of opposing gods shouldn't work together, and even if the characters don't know it, the gods will still be angry about seeing it. I can definitely say I don't miss the old days of seeing druids+satho priests or gwennies+asrals hanging out together like old chums, anyway.

I also like that people can choose to hide their faiths (especially if they're trying to blend into enemy society, see lilithians and gwennies), and think it would be a little disappointing if they had proverbial neon signs light up above their heads the moment they teamed up with someone they oughtn't had.

Though I do agree that the ease to lose faith/convert accidentally combined with the (temporary) vitality loss for doing so is pretty harsh.

[adanath]

I'd be hesitant to change the enemy faith teaming system. It's harsh, but it's supposed to be. Followers of opposing gods shouldn't work together, and even if the characters don't know it, the gods will still be angry about seeing it. I can definitely say I don't miss the old days of seeing druids+satho priests or gwennies+asrals hanging out together like old chums, anyway.

I also like that people can choose to hide their faiths (especially if they're trying to blend into enemy society, see lilithians and gwennies), and think it would be a little disappointing if they had proverbial neon signs light up above their heads the moment they teamed up with someone they oughtn't had.

Though I do agree that the ease to lose faith/convert accidentally combined with the (temporary) vitality loss for doing so is pretty harsh.

The key to keep it form happening is to check karma often, you are very connected to your god in general (they keep giving you new life all the time) so you should be concerned about their feelings towards you in general. If you check often then you will realize what people you were around when your karma changed.

If you do this then you will be able to see oh..well my god hates them so either they are doing some thing my god considers really bad or are following a deity that is an enemy of my god.

[Delia]

One thing to consider is how likely are characters to actually lie about their god? That is actually announcing to worship some other god than they actually do when confronted about it? There are very clear player motivations to this but would a person of true faith actually go that far? Think about this when the question pops up IG. Obviously Lilithians have the advantage here

The point is, converse and get to know people at least superficially before committing to choices or if your character simply does not care then roll with the consequences

[Allurana]

The key to keep it form happening is to check karma often, you are very connected to your god in general (they keep giving you new life all the time) so you should be concerned about their feelings towards you in general. If you check often then you will realize what people you were around when your karma changed.

If you do this then you will be able to see oh..well my god hates them so either they are doing some thing my god considers really bad or are following a deity that is an enemy of my god.

Well, not necessarily. Karma and favour aren't tied together. Hypothetically, I could be a holy Lilithian hanging out with a Tanielite Crusader, and they'd take a nasty faithdrop despite both of us remaining holy.

Such extreme cases should not happen, but not everyone maintains their god's ideal karma, either.

[adanath]

The key to keep it form happening is to check karma often, you are very connected to your god in general (they keep giving you new life all the time) so you should be concerned about their feelings towards you in general. If you check often then you will realize what people you were around when your karma changed.

If you do this then you will be able to see oh..well my god hates them so either they are doing some thing my god considers really bad or are following a deity that is an enemy of my god.

Well, not necessarily. Karma and favour aren't tied together. Hypothetically, I could be a holy Lilithian hanging out with a Tanielite Crusader, and they'd take a nasty faithdrop despite both of us remaining holy.

Such extreme cases should not happen, but not everyone maintains their god's ideal karma, either.

Someone could be lilithan hang out with a crusader and keep holy alignment (I think this is somewhat quesitonable even for lilithans), however it will be radically and quickly obvious and as I said, you can quickly if you check your favour and karma often see about what time period it happened, and discern that it is either an action you did or someone you hung out with. THat is what I meant, it is not hard to discern who or what is dragging you down if it is happening often and you pay closer attention. Even if they are lying.

[Allurana]

As long as someone isn't a social butterfly, sure, what you say is true enough.

[Delia]

If preaching was reduced in effect it would be nice but if it there are going to be tweaks I think it would be more beneficial to go all the way and redefine it to a more exact form. All in all preaches should result in less favour gain, one should be able to listen to a preach(and be able to do nothing else)for extra effect and there should be "collateral damage" for people hanging around though that should be minimal and could not raise you above certain point. Or perhaps adjust preach efficiency by roomsize as well? A large crowded marketplace might not be a bad place to overhear a stray preach but travelling with a priest and hearing preaches while taking shelter somewhere and being close quarters would be more so?

Then again, perhaps not if ease of gameplay is desired as many complications would arise. A messy subject, IMO.

[fernao]

Hmm, considering how clerics "operate", how about differntiating between a normal marketplace sermon and a "field sermon"?
Effect of a marketplace sermon would be a lot lower for the bystanders, as the "effect" of the sermon is distributed amoung so many intentional and accidental listeners. Besides, it is usually quite noisy and busy on marketplaces. On the other hand, a "field sermon" would be a sermon a cleric gives for just the company he travels with, they would have to rest in order to actively participate and give the priest a chance to preach in the first place. Such a private sermon would then distribute the effects only amoung those listening, allowing for a quicker and faster conversion.

Faith gain for the priest would be in both cases the same, and rather low compared to other activities. Maybe he could get a boost and some additional reputation amoung his clergy for a successful conversion though. Maybe even some xp.

[Allurana]

If preaching gets an overhaul, I'd still support having the listening mechanic be an active command and not just passive resting. Maybe people standing in the same room could get a -tiny- faithboost without actively listening, but people shouldn't be converted unless they're already on the fringe, IMO. Unless, of course, they actively listen to the sermon, in which case it should affect them more.

I like Fernao's idea of field sermons vs. market sermons, as it sounds like it would encourage more relationship with followers and clerics that way.

I also like the idea of some prestige for a cleric for converting a new follower... but only if listening to preaches becomes an active choice and no longer a passive one. Otherwise, I worry it would just encourage questionable preaching tactics to rack up a conversion high-score.