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Combat specials for mounted fights

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ceinna
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby ceinna » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:53 pm

Being a martial artist real life Skragna, I'm going to somewhat disagree with this. Someone trained properly to punch can hit insanely hard. I've knocked out people wearing full face masks while I was wearing padded gloves in sparring matches (I've also BEEN the one on the other end).

Skragna wrote:I suppose. Though I think punch should be a bit more deadly if you've got wargloves or gauntlets on. I can take a hit from anyone I've met, and have from a good few, and sure it hurts, but I've also been clipped on the chin by a guy wearing a gauntlet, and that one just 'bout put me to sleep. For mounts though, I guess that yeah, trampling works for warg, but I'd still love to see all those other abilities for them too.

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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Skragna » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:27 pm

Then it may just be me. I've been hit in the head with a great deal of things, ranging from fists, to BBs, to bricks, to baseball bats. Come to think of it... Why doesn't Geas have training mounts? You pay an amount of gold, and are loaned (IE not allowed to leave a specific area) a horse to use for training.

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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby ceinna » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:45 am

Because that limits the roleplay possibilities for others to rent out their horses for training. :twisted:

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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Drayn » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:11 am

Fun fact: Boxing gloves actually made boxing MORE dangerous. Without them, you have to pull back on power a bit so you don't hurt your own hand, with them, you can strike with a lot more force and momentum (thanks to the extra weight of the glove), resulting in concussions and broken necks.

But anyhoo, this is diverging away from the topic of mounted combat somewhat :)

Another special I'd like to see with axes or swords, but can't think of a good name, would be holding the blade out to the side and charging into battle and just mowing down a load of people. I guess mow would work as a name :)

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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Sairina » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:07 pm

Fun fact: Boxing gloves actually made boxing MORE dangerous.

Was just about to say that...

Back on topic though, while I don't fight on horseback, more specials are always a good thing to make a fight interesting, so I support that idea.

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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby lanyara » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:39 pm

What do you tell players who face mounted riders in combat and:

(a) lack the funds (and time to earn up, especially when they are casual players, and do not want to be spoonfed money by other players) for a mount

(b) can not teleport between areas because they pant quickly, whereas a rider never has this problem and a mount would not pant, which means that in all those situations where panting is an issue like in an escape, the one on a mount can safely retreat whereas the one without a mount is totally screwed, because he can not escape

(c) can not carry as much as a rider with his extra slots on the mount, which can be a huge factor (potions, ammunitions, reserve armour for quick redressing, extra sets of weapons etc...)

(d) can not easily break out of blocked exits whereas a mounted rider can, in an almost guaranteed manner, which is a big PvP factor (failsafe ignoring of blocks as a PvP tool)

(e) do not have a merc (= mount) as additional enhancement to use in PvP - extra damage, extra hits

(f) would like to PvP but realize that without a mount this is rather useless against the mounted cavalry in the game?

(g) whether playing without mounts is still an option or whether it is not altogether

(h) whether they want an environment in where it is required to get mounts to be "meaningful" in PvP in the first place

I see a rather one-sided approach here. You critisize the builders for looking into balance issues here in regards to mounts. So when you critisize the builders, which is fine, you *also* need to give answers to the above issues.

Because it is not solely about the builders here, it is also about other players who are forced by a system of increasingly pushing the game for more and more powergaming and powertraining, sometimes as an unwanted side-effect. No builder can always reliably determine all side-effects or the players reception to changes.

Everyone loves new features and hates nerfs. How can you change a game if you only add to it and never take away? Or if adding something to it was a mistake, for instance when it was very unbalanced, and taking away at a later time forces players to adjust to a new environment again?

Read what PO Ronya wrote in regards to pushing the game into a setting in where only when you are good at powergaming can you really play and partake. It is a completely valid statement and it was mentioned many times before as well by other players.

If anything the game needs to stop being pushed towards further and further PvP features - PO Golub is 100% right when he wrote that the game should focus back on roleplay first as first class citizen again, and if that means that balance must be reviewed then this is a really good thing in my opinion.

On the topic of specials and mounts in combat, I concur in principle that some specials should be usable, but the specials assume the default to be non-mounted combat (standing firmly on your feet).

Drayn headbutting a rat without a problem already shows that combat has a few problems as it is and I would assume that in the long run, specials that make sense are made available again in mounted combat, if applicable.

As for what PO Luminier wrote in regards to charging while fighting, the problem is that the code must make certain assumptions. I don't want to explain it in all detail, I also do not *know* that the code does or does not because the implementation detail can vary or be changed any moment in time, but just consider a simple example here - a "long" room (wide distance room), and two characters are in the very same room.

One character blocks the exit east, the other blocks the exit west, and then they are attacking each other. So why can they still block the two exits at the same time while they stand on opposing "sides" of the same room? The combat assumes that fighting must logically happen in the "middle" of a room where they can meet, and so is it with mounted combat as well. The only way you can, right now, fight in the same room is by being in the middle of it with your mount and assuming that the opponent(s) do/does the same.

So when you write you want to "charge" against an opponent while being in the same room, it also means that in most situations you need to be mobile here on your mount (but your target is also mobile at the same time, you must not forget this), gain a bit of distance between your opponent, then attack the opponent that is before the mount (because you must assume that you actually managed to move the horse before your opponent in order to trip your opponent; but I will also tell you that the opponent will say that he skillfully avoided you by moving to the side already, also at the same time; and now the game must resolve these two conflicting opinions here, because one says he has hit, the other says he has not, in order to determine who "wins" in such a scenario).

If you can charge against an opponent while you are in the same room, will you grant your opponent a strike of opportunity as you pass by? If you miss him with your first attack? You need to explain the scenario not only because you describe it in a way you want to see it happen, but also at the same time from how your opponent "reasons" - reasons in as far as the combat is assumed to take place.

Anyway - I would suggest to first account for all these balance issues, and after that has been adjusted, slowly find ways to have mounts be usable in combat but in a slightly different ways. Drayn on a horse headbutting a rat like Matusalem (I AM SORRY!!!) or a crusader on his giant ponicorn to elbow a goblin would sure look very peculiar and probably is not very realistic.

All the specials assume as default non-mounted combat, it would not seem right to automatically assume that all of how they work be fit for mounted combat, in the same level of efficiency, and failsafe fighting for the rider (can he fall down while doing a special?).
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby fernao » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:24 am

lanyara wrote:What do you tell players who face mounted riders in combat and:

(a) lack the funds (and time to earn up, especially when they are casual players, and do not want to be spoonfed money by other players) for a mount


Mounts are "extras" that come at a price, just like the varying sizes of lockers, hotel/inn rooms with and without chests etc. You do not really need them, but they make playing a lot easier. And that extra benefit requires payment. Constant payment actually, since the stabling of mounts or rent for rooms come in regular payments.

lanyara wrote:(b) can not teleport between areas because they pant quickly, whereas a rider never has this problem and a mount would not pant, which means that in all those situations where panting is an issue like in an escape, the one on a mount can safely retreat whereas the one without a mount is totally screwed, because he can not escape

The fact that mounts don't tire is definately a bug. And since mounts are according to the current help files beta, its a bug that needs fixing.

lanyara wrote:(c) can not carry as much as a rider with his extra slots on the mount, which can be a huge factor (potions, ammunitions, reserve armour for quick redressing, extra sets of weapons etc...)

Not every type of mount can carry burdens, and the amount that fits into a sack tied to a horse is insanely huge. A balancing there might be helpful. Especially if the weight carried by the mount has additional influence on it getting tired, but that requires fixing of the mounts don't tire bug.

lanyara wrote:(d) can not easily break out of blocked exits whereas a mounted rider can, in an almost guaranteed manner, which is a big PvP factor (failsafe ignoring of blocks as a PvP tool)

Would be enough for me if mounts with broken legs would fall, and their rider along with them. Otherwise, its another benefit of using mounts.

lanyara wrote:(e) do not have a merc (= mount) as additional enhancement to use in PvP - extra damage, extra hits

There are cheap mercs around, you just have to find them.

lanyara wrote:(f) would like to PvP but realize that without a mount this is rather useless against the mounted cavalry in the game?


Who says its rather useless to fight against mounted folks? You just have to develop the right tactics.

lanyara wrote:(g) whether playing without mounts is still an option or whether it is not altogether

Depends on what you want to do and how to do it. Part of the roleplay I'd say.

lanyara wrote:(h) whether they want an environment in where it is required to get mounts to be "meaningful" in PvP in the first place

This one really made me laugh, Lanyara. I think we can agree that Phelan is quite capable of being "meaningful" in PvP, and I must say, I haven't seen him on a mount yet. And believe me, I see him quite regularily.
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Delia » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:15 am

The one single most balancing fact about mounts is that they usually take hits and die easier than the one riding them. Just kill the silly thing and be done with it.
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby fernao » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:16 am

Definately. Bringing a mount into combat means you risk losing it to hits. And I know that I lost well over 500 gold in wargs to crusaders and other "friendly" folks from the south.

On the other hand, it is usually understood that if you leave your mount a couple of rooms away from the actual fighting place that these mounts are left alone. But thats usually only a gentlements agreements that you never can fully rely on.
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Drayn » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:51 pm

I agree with Fernao's responses to your points. Yes it takes a lot of effort to get a mount, but that can be said about anything in the game, PvP or RP. It takes a lot of effort to raise your stats and skills, it takes a lot of effort to gain promotion in your guild (or it should do), it takes a lot of effort to cultivate strong reliable allies who will put themselves at risk for you.

I agree all these suggestions should come with hefty balances. Falling off a horse/mount is dangerous for the rider. You risk breaking something from the fall alone be it arms, legs or your neck, then on top of that, you've got a panicked horse who is suddenly without direction standing more or less on top of you.

I would say some realistic risks and counters to mounted combat would be:

Broken limbs/neck: A broken neck might seem harsh, but it's entirely plausible. It should be reserved for those riders who are ill trained in mounted combat and acrobatics and even then only rare. The risk of death should be sufficient to make people nervous about blithely trotting in to combat. Broken arms and legs I think are already something that happens with mounts if you're a bad rider.

Trampling: Your horse isn't going to just stand perfectly still when you fall off. It will freak the hell out! All around it are people screaming and hitting one another and now it's rider has gone more or less underneath it. With out the experience to roll out from underneath quickly and an ill trained mount, that's going to get you all sorts of messed up.

Bolting: Horses should really have a wimpy type response to damage or other things that spook them and carry their rider off in a random direction until they calm down. Anyone who has used the built in wimpy system can attest to how unpredictable and dangerous it can be, often carrying you further in to danger than away from it. Also, if you've been dismounted, you need to go traipsing about the country side looking for it.

Polearms vs Mounts: Polearms were practically invented to counter cavalry. If they don't already, they should get some hefty bonuses against mounted players and maybe a special that allows you to plant your spear/pike/halberd into the ground and level it at an oncoming mount. This might even be an automatic response to mounted combat and be used more like fencing manoeuvres like feints and counters. Even a newbie/lowbie can generally afford a spear or a pointy stick and this would be a great way for them to even the odds a little.


Oh, I should clarify Drayn wasn't mounted when he headbutted the rat, but it's still pretty weird :D

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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Zehren » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:21 pm

Drayn wrote:Oh, I should clarify Drayn wasn't mounted when he headbutted the rat, but it's still pretty weird :D


Halflings headbutting trolls and ogres, yo.
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby luminier » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:37 pm

I agree with quite a few of the ideas here. Especially the one where mounts need to tire.

I think there are also some basic questions that we should answer when considering the fate of mounts and mounted combat.

Do we think that a mounted fighter should have an advantage over a fighter on foot.

Do we think that a mounted fighter should be able to use specials/do we think that a footman should have a lessened effect of their specials on a mount.

Do we think that some weapons should just be all together useless against mounted fighters? If I recall, in real life (and from all this I assume we are going for max realism), you basically need a long spear/halberd and a bunch of friends to have a hope in hell against calvary.

As the game currently stands, I would venture to say that even when I am using a unicorn I would feel like I am -still- at a disadvantage against a similarly experienced cleric and I have a good advantage of a similarly experienced non-magical melee fighter. If you would like to know reasons why, I can list many.
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Skragna » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:02 pm

This is where I shine! Luminier, you're both right and wrong. A single man stands no chance against a cavalry charge, but at the same time, a single man on a unicorn is not a cavalry charge. A single person against a mounted guy is only at a disadvantage, and not a hopeless one.

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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby luminier » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:18 pm

Skragna wrote:This is where I shine! Luminier, you're both right and wrong. A single man stands no chance against a cavalry charge, but at the same time, a single man on a unicorn is not a cavalry charge. A single person against a mounted guy is only at a disadvantage, and not a hopeless one.


Im not sure where I talked about a calvary charge or that mounted characters should have an ultimate advantage of non mounted characters.
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Delia » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:39 am

When discussing mounted combat balance it is important to take into account that one does not simply use characters like Luminier and Phelan for poster boys for Mounted vs. footed combat balance.

When Delia was in Legion she was part of cavalry and had her Legion warhorse, which was supposedly more buff than regular warhorses, it did not fare too well against foes that are considered insignificant. Even when the horse was armoured it could be reduced to half hit points and bleeding badly by four goblins. This was with skills of 60+ Then again everything has its weak and strong points.
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Ottarr » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:06 pm

I've discovered you can /punch/ from horseback

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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby luminier » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:37 pm

Nah, just Otter can. Us plebians can't.
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby luminier » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:35 pm

so it's been almost a year, still no dice on using mounted specials?

i mean ive just been dismounting, using a special, unwielding, mounting, and then wielding again. i don't like how clunky that is
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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Aslak » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:45 am

I would very much be against standard specials available while mounted. Being mounted has advantages, so it should have disadvantages as well. As well I do not think dismounting and mounting in combat should work like it does today.

What I could think might work though would be a slightly higher chance to hit with base attack due to height advantage.
If specials are needed it should be specials only available from horseback, like a lancecharge (if that is not only available) or a special to ride down a foe.

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Re: Combat specials for mounted fights

Postby Delia » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:13 am

Or charging past the enemy team formation to hit that pesky archer/priest/mage at the back.
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