Vote for Our Mud on TMC!
 
 
Geas Home
 
Play the Game

Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still mud-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

glorfindel
Hero
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:08 pm

Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby glorfindel » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:40 am

Hi,

I've debated for nearly a month whether or not I want to post my thoughts on this and, in advance, I warn you, that this is merely my OOC view of things and should be taken generally with a grain of salt. Glor has his own reasons how he treats applicants and are not really part of this post.

- For the last 12 or so applicants I had, 95% did never put through the strength to hold through a single month. If my char doesn't even know you, how can you expect him to put you onto the line of something that is a lifelong decision of a path, on that also leads you away from soceity and will change your daily life? Overdrawn, it felt like the char was created, played till they ran into me, then being expected to be led in on the simple fact that they had some witty things to say. It doesn't work that way, at least not with me. An occoupational guild is a very serious choice, it will affect who you are, whom you are friends and enemy with and the guild usually will devote a huge portion of their time to get you up to speed and help you along the first year, till you can work your path mostly on your own. I would even go as far as saying that you should not make a char who you plan to have to be part of a certain guild. Make the and see where life drifts you to. If somebody would've said that glor would eventually be shaolin, I would've called them crazy.

- On promotions, it's a rather similar thing. If my char never sees you acomplish or do anything, not even sees you saying hello on the line if you hop in, how do you expect to earn yourself a promotion. I don't think anybody can claim that my promotion tests were particularly hard and so far I've not had more then one or two failures, but for those to be offered to you, I want to see a certain kind of activity. Hopping in once every half year because you have grinded the skills neccesary and just need the promotion test... will not get you a promotion, sorry.

- A guild is much more then an easy way to get a set of unique skills and for those who ever have met my char or tried to join the Shaos, certainly noticed that nothing I ever put forth has anything to do with martial arts at all. They are something that allow a Shaolin to function, not the main cause of their existance.

- I have not been the most active player in the last year. I sure was around, but people from different timezones might have had trouble getting in touch with the guild since Yngwe stopped playing, who usually cought those who would not play during my hours. Same goes for those students who did not manage to catch me to get a promotion. For you, I'm sorry and if you really feel this has been in your problem, feel free to drop me a message here on the forums to work out when you would have a chance to catch me (though my playing is rather spontaneous there might be something to work out). Which should not mean you get to join / a promotion then, it doesn't work that way, but I know the frustration of never even getting ahold of your superiors and having the chance
to argue your case.


Why did I write that? Well, honestly, mostly out of frustration. Seeing people walk away when you actively put in thought and energy to make that guild an experience for them is very annoying. Seeing people join a cleric guild after you let them intentionally dangle in the air for a single week is equally frustrating, seeing that people are not willing to invest a bit of time, you get the feeling, that not being in a guild equals being nothing, which is not true at all. Played guildless myself for two years and it certainly had it's own fun.

As said, please take your flames elsewhere and take it constructive if you want to add something to this / discuss this with me. I'm still not entirely sure if it belongs up here, but a part of me thinks I needed to say that.

mazarmormuk
Veteran
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby mazarmormuk » Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:39 pm

i agree wholeheartly, glorfindel.

Orodreth
Journeyman
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby Orodreth » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:34 pm

People want instant gratification nowadays.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2473
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby Delia » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:01 am

Having been where Glorfindel is now I cannot but agree. Many of the shao applicants were uppity, haughty, arrogant know-it-all king of the worlds who somehow had already mastered all the snippets of wisdom I tried to feed them and were really just in it to learn the moves. Usually if the guild join command wasn't forthcoming by the second meeting, the chances were that character would completely disappear.

As for promotions I feel the one seeking the promotion should do most of the work. Actively seek contact and chances to interact and impress the master. If the master has to run after the student for the odd desperate chance of promoting the student(as shaos desperately need more black belts than just one), something is grievously wrong. Been there, done that.

It is not all doom and gloom and desperation, there have been wonderful, wonderful players in the shaos and I have had a blast there. Those were good times.

Sometimes I do try to look back and reflect how I was as a Geas newbie. I think I must have been insufferable as this was my first(and only)MUD I have played long term. Atleast insufferable by those standards I have now but a long time has passed since and new players do not have that. More so if they are young, how insufferable we must be in their minds!

Just saying it is not necessarily very easy for either party and I can relate to the frustration being felt.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby luminier » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:20 am

Tell them to grind punch and kick to 100, then they can join. That'll shut em up and keep em busy >=D
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

ferranifer
Hero
Posts: 362
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:16 am
Location: Norway

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby ferranifer » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:34 am

luminier wrote:Tell them to grind punch and kick to 100, then they can join. That'll shut em up and keep em busy >=D


That will also ensure the Shaolin guild actually dies off.

If the frustration about newcomers comes from the need to make the guild grow, then well, maybe the standards about what's expected from applicants need to be a bit more lax. You cannot really expect young players to adhere to the same standards that took you 10-years of rolepaying, MUDing and Geasing. Don't you remember how it was like to play Dungeons & Dragons when you were 12? You could teach them over time, or let them be taught by the rest of the game's environment, but think about what you're asking for. Nobody expects you to have 2 masters and 10 years of experience to get an entry point internship. You need to match your expectations to your needs.

Now if you want the guild to only take extremely good players, well, it will probably die off. You might be ok with that, but I doubt so. I hope you don't.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby luminier » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:06 am

I think you let them in as a white belt basically right away and teach them about some about the temple. The trainer will NOT train them unless allowed by another black belt. That way they can get all the gear, practice being a shaolin and if they decide they don't like it, oh well - they stop playing. If they decide they like it, you can teach them more and eventually permit them to learn skills.

That might help with the abusers while still being fairly lax.

Better solution?
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2473
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby Delia » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:47 am

I eventually adobted a habit not that far off from what Luminier described. Delia had tons of white belts under her wing eventually some of which advanced somewhat. One of them even slowly proceeded towards the black belt!

Shaos are bit weird/different compared to other guilds even if some structural similarity exists with scribes and mages. There is the grindy bit as you need to improve your (many)skills in order to be promoted as well as the pressure(from the masters atleast) to sit around and do the whole philosophy thing which is not improving your skills at all.

Add to that all kinds of roleplay expectations and in game guild rules that have accumulated over the years, I can understand that players who just like to join a guild and backhand chop everything in sight and just generally play the renegade and do what thou wilt types(a very common stereotype)might be put off by the constraints(which in reality aren't that much IMHO) placed by the temple.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates

"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre

"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

fernao
Champion
Posts: 608
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:44 am

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby fernao » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:12 am

Some guilds you can join through npc, even some occupational guilds.

If there is a lack of active leadership characters, there should be at least a well stocked library that gives guidance to the new members.

It might actually not even be a lack of active leaders, simply the fact of bad aölignment of playing times is often enough a reason to make a new member feel abandoned or lonely.

But I think an active guild live is definately a great thing to go for, as it enriches the rp possibilities a lot.
Life is but a butterflies dream
Image

glorfindel
Hero
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:08 pm

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby glorfindel » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:24 am

luminier wrote:I think you let them in as a white belt basically right away and teach them about some about the temple. The trainer will NOT train them unless allowed by another black belt. That way they can get all the gear, practice being a shaolin and if they decide they don't like it, oh well - they stop playing. If they decide they like it, you can teach them more and eventually permit them to learn skills.


a) I would agree with the fact of allowing people in a white belts quite early _IF_ the access to the trainer was somehow restrained. Right now, you can join in, get all shao skills, train them up and leave without having ever gotten a promotion or seen a single master after joining. Nearly all the benefits, no RP, a lot of win for some chars out there.

EDIT: thinking a bit more about this, I would consider this close to perfect, having the white belt a 'probation' rank, with a certain amount of control over what the white belts can learn from trainers on their own (thinking, avanced shao specials, for example, to have a rank restriction).

fernao wrote:If there is a lack of active leadership characters, there should be at least a well stocked library that gives guidance to the new members.


I think about everybody who had themselves a black belt has been working on that and it's growing, though not perfectly. It's definitely something to keep in mind and something that will help a new char to find it's place. Definitely something I also need to put some more time into still.

ferranifer wrote:f the frustration about newcomers comes from the need to make the guild grow, then well, maybe the standards about what's expected from applicants need to be a bit more lax. You cannot really expect young players to adhere to the same standards that took you 10-years of rolepaying, MUDing and Geasing. Don't you remember how it was like to play Dungeons & Dragons when you were 12? You could teach them over time, or let them be taught by the rest of the game's environment, but think about what you're asking for. Nobody expects you to have 2 masters and 10 years of experience to get an entry point internship. You need to match your expectations to your needs.


Well, the only thing I really expect of them is to demonstrate they are willing to stick around. Meaning, you want in? build up your char beforehand a bit and don't expect to be in on the _first day_ of your chars creation. Get people to know a bit. That's all am asking for, nothing more, nothing less. The rest will come in time.

EDIT: And poFerra, I agree with you completely that you can't expect from people what you learned through 10+ years of roleplaying and I try not to expect it. I just want to get the feeling they are generally interested and are willing to stick around. Then I see no objection for them to join.

Rastien
Experienced
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat May 17, 2014 5:23 am

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby Rastien » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:32 am

glorfindel wrote:EDIT: thinking a bit more about this, I would consider this close to perfect, having the white belt a 'probation' rank, with a certain amount of control over what the white belts can learn from trainers on their own (thinking, avanced shao specials, for example, to have a rank restriction).

This troubles are probably not just about Shaolin guild. Would you (glorfindel/all) appreciate if all guilds have some sort of "probation" rank with restricted opportunities. Maybe even with option to leave again without (too much/any) prosecution from the former guild. Something like Squires in Crusaders, as far as I know about them. Once you are promoted, you get more options but also generally get yourself in bigger troubles if you _then_ want to leave.

Do you think it would allow guild leaders to accept some newer characters with lower demands, thus making sure more newbies are not lost in rage?

Also yes, I do agree that "this is my first day in Geas, I am going to join some guilds" is a bit too fast. But what about lowering joining requirements (to that basic level, with just some options) to something like
* You are at least one day old.
* You are known by somebody else then that guild leader.
* You can show you have some skills in the part of skill tree that guild is interested.

Brom
Experienced
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:52 pm

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby Brom » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:32 am

I am likely one of the players at fault here, wanting promotions and increasing rank without being able to interact much with the shaolin master. I joined the shaolin when i had much more time to play geas, and was more available, but more recently i havent had that time and had actually not logged on for months.

My reasoning for that is that I don't have alot of time to play geas and especially being in a different time zone than glorfindel makes it more difficult, so I am definitely looking for instant gratification in my character/guild.

glorfindel
Hero
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:08 pm

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby glorfindel » Fri Jul 04, 2014 3:40 am

Brom wrote:I am likely one of the players at fault here, wanting promotions and increasing rank without being able to interact much with the shaolin master. I joined the shaolin when i had much more time to play geas, and was more available, but more recently i havent had that time and had actually not logged on for months.

My reasoning for that is that I don't have alot of time to play geas and especially being in a different time zone than glorfindel makes it more difficult, so I am definitely looking for instant gratification in my character/guild.


Nope, you are not. Really, you've been one of the few that when I met them were really _trying_ and actually making good on things. My initial post was not aimed at you at all. I can understand having different timezones and making stuff difficult because of that... there are chars though who don't even bother and those were... part of the reason why I posted this.

User avatar
tanriel
Master
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 5:14 pm
Location: Squirrel island.

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby tanriel » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:21 pm

> This troubles are probably not just about Shaolin guild. Would you
> (glorfindel/all) appreciate if all guilds have some sort of
> "probation" rank with restricted opportunities.


I think most guilds have that. The Rangers have the apprentice rank, which was not in place in e.g. early 2003 (or whenever else the guild was created, I really forgot when).

> Maybe even with option to leave again without (too much/any)
> prosecution from the former guild.

That was the reason why most guilds have had this rank eventually.

It's like a "try out" rank. Personally, while I understand the idea behind it, I also find it absolutely unnecessary. I will soon explain why.

> Something like Squires in Crusaders, as far as I know about them.
> Once you are promoted, you get more options but also generally
> get yourself in bigger troubles if you _then_ want to leave.

The problem is that different guilds have different sets of rules.

Some have permanent enemies, some have semi-permanent enemies, some don't. Some guilds have permanent members (which is something I do not understand at all), others don't. Some have NPC joining, some don't (and I understand the idea behind NPC joining, and I agree with the underlying idea - I just don't want to have to maintain a guild that offers this in the way it was implemented because players can misuse it to bypass player-to-player interaction. You can read up on what PO Luminier once wrote about ex-Legionnaires being able to instantly join the Crusade, for no IC reason at all. Of course there are also other NPC-joining ways, for young characters, and I don't agree with the implementation either - to the best of my knowledge, that is not possible for the Rangers, thankfully, and at least in the first half of 2013 when I still played, the Rangers actually were one of the most active guilds, which is a feat that was achieved not by me but by the other Rangers, because I did not even play that much in 2012, and when I came back, Trisket and Aturshus were very active, and I did not even know them before then nor did my character recruit them either).

You would then, when you have a very active guild, even be in the "lucky" (?) position that you could exclude others who wish to join, or be nit-picky about it, and some roleplay may be the outcome like this (I hope PO Twig does not mind to put this down here):

------------------------------------------------------------------------

You tell Twig[halfling] in Common: For this I would also like to apologize
to you, Mister Twig.
Twig[halfling] offers in Common: And what about when you made me feel like I
didn't belong?
You sigh slightly.
You talk quietly in Common: I don't really want to hug a boy, but if I must
...
You emote: Tanriel extends his arms as he steps to Twig[halfling], seemingly
attempting to give Twig[halfling] a hug.
Tris[tshahark] looks at you.
Tris[tshahark] looks at Twig[halfling].
Twig[halfling] hugs you.
You hug Twig[halfling] warmly.
Tris[tshahark] grins.
Twig[halfling] offers in Common: Fine, I forgive you mister Tanriel.
You tell Twig[halfling] in Common: Thank you, Mister Twig.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not know what happened since then but here you have had one character that was treated unfairly (e. g. by Tanriel) when wishing to join the Rangers, and the IC explanations to the character given were not always very logical, either, at least not from my character, so the IC complaints were very well justified and I think it was roleplayed very properly from Twig. I think some other players might have stopped playing when something like this happened to their character?

Now, however, take a step back and look at the situation, and you suddenly notice something interesting here:

Here you have a guild that is rather active at that moment in time, with quite a few who wish to join said guild, and some able to make it, and some (few) others who don't seem to make it.

And now compare this to a guild that is rather inactive, with a few wishing to join but noone to talk to, and these characters often ending up joining other guilds, or retiring - at least for a while.

And suddenly you may see two different solutions to the same problem.

One that is solved nicely, solely because there are many players active, and the other one that is not solved at all, because there are no players active. And I think this is the key here...

If you ask me, the problem lies 95% in activity. If you are inactive, there is simply no way you can maintain a guild. It will never work, and NPC joining won't be effective to compensate for that in any way either. Admin can continue to think that it will solve something, but it won't.

In my opinion, the apprentice-like ranks are in essence useless IF said guild is inactive. Because players simply want to interact with other players, and if they can't, they get bored and stop playing. And this is the fundamental problem here.

The biggest problem is not of guilds in itself, but in making players want to even play the game in the first place. From this, everything else follows.

Even if many players do not want to join guilds, more players simply will make the game more interesting, and often provide a "seed" for other players to interact with - they provide an "interaction platform", if you so will.

Anyway, I wanted to write more, but I think I lose focus and there is now soccer final, so there I go (even though I normally hate soccer).

glorfindel
Hero
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:08 pm

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby glorfindel » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:27 am

Just a short note, on what you wrote, Tanriel. I personally agree with you that autojoin is... a bad idea. I don't like it very much and it is something I believe has to go. Joining without having _any_ context of what the guild is supposed to be about, is problematic at best.

As for the 'probation' ranks, I believe it makes one thing easier: deciding to let people to be part of your guild. As I stated above, I find it extremely difficult to allow people in quickly because it opens a lot very quickly with no control by those who introduced people.

Ranks of reduced access for limited amounts of time do give certain sense to me, to have a manner of progression and a way for the "teacher" to actually decide whether or not people fit in.

fernao
Champion
Posts: 608
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:44 am

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby fernao » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:08 am

Maybe in-game mail addresses that reach the leading members of a guild would be helpful as well. It would make those "in charge" of a guild aware of people that have a interest in the guild. After all, player information might be rather outdated, so asking IC who is a leading member of guild x may lead to totally wrong contact, if you find those people at all.
Life is but a butterflies dream
Image

Delmon
Champion
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: USA

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby Delmon » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:40 pm

If you join a guild too early you may end up with enemies you do not want or are ready for.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Joining the Shaolin, promotions and me

Postby luminier » Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:04 am

Delmon wrote:If you join a guild too early you may end up with enemies you do not want or are ready for.


Hope I don't derail too much. I feel like if the person is really that weak, the stronger character could be a bit easier on them and instead of maybe killing them, just give them a scare or try to show them the power of the DARK side.

I would much prefer internal struggle over death. =D
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron