Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still MUD-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#61 Post by luminier » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:40 am

Id imagine something like Luminier with 2-3 of his maxed combats as clerical skills instead.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Skragna
Champion
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#62 Post by Skragna » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:13 pm

Speaking as a tshahark with a twohanded weapon, who DOESN'T use light armor (Lookin' at YOU, Mogwai) it can take me anywhere from instant to over half a minute before I swing in a combat. If I miss, or bang off a shield, or simply don't land a deadly blow (IE a "To the bone" or other such huge hit), I pretty much have to retreat from a fight, because in the time it took me to swing ONCE, I've taken about as much damage as I could have put out. (Barring, of course, an instant kill like the one time I cut Delmon in half literally the second I walked into the room) When I have to fight a priest, who goes into mood defend, negating most any chance of me landing a decent hit, and then proceeds to pepper me with miracles I can't resist (even Crusader resistance isn't all that good against high-skill miracles) I tend to lose. Badly. In my personal opinion, the only change that is truly needed is to alter how quickly a cleric can hurl a miracle while not using a balanced mood. Frenzy would give you a faster miracle at a lower chance of a response (IE you forgot to twitch your finger right or booched your concentration) while defensive moods would extend your cast time and boost your chance of a response. This forces the PVP tactic of "hide behind shield and pummel with miracles" to be greatly lessened.

Aslak
Master
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:58 am

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#63 Post by Aslak » Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:35 pm

Skragna wrote:In my personal opinion, the only change that is truly needed is to alter how quickly a cleric can hurl a miracle while not using a balanced mood. Frenzy would give you a faster miracle at a lower chance of a response (IE you forgot to twitch your finger right or booched your concentration) while defensive moods would extend your cast time and boost your chance of a response. This forces the PVP tactic of "hide behind shield and pummel with miracles" to be greatly lessened.
Cannot say I have had too many PvP fights yet, but I have never used a shield in them. I always prefered twohanded weapons for I have seen them as much more effective, even as a cleric.

mazarmormuk
Veteran
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:47 pm

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#64 Post by mazarmormuk » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:26 pm

i think, as much as mogwai differs from skragna, as much isnt there "the clerics".

the fighting systems of asralite, tanielite and sathonite clerics differ extremely in armour, weapon and miracles/rituals with as extremely different tactics.
including race/character, i doubt you can put a darkelven sathonite in light bone armour in the same pot with a plate-armoured dwarven asralite.

not ment as an offense, but..
"It can take me up to half a minute (not one of my miracles would kill in 30 secs) until i hit first time. If i dont crit then (= instant death), i have to retreat (= I need to behave really *** to get killed at all by a cleric)"
...is a nice description, and i dont see the clerics OP here :)

it describes exactly what clerics are..extremely good in self-defence and nearly useless in hunt and kill.
clerics with shield and defend mood are removing your health stone by stone. time for everyone to leave and hardly a chance for the cleric to hunt and hit again.

So IF you want clerics to focus more on miracles and less on weapons and physical stats, the miracle system would need a significant change in predictability/critical hits/hunting (i m not at all against this)

Skragna
Champion
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:48 am

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#65 Post by Skragna » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:28 pm

Mazar, if I walked into a room with a hostile warpriest and they threw even one fireball or bird at me, I'd need to run away if I didn't also hit.

mazarmormuk
Veteran
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:47 pm

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#66 Post by mazarmormuk » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:41 pm

only if you were wearing a heap of leathers. most people in war with us did remove their underwear and yawn widely on a hfire.
especially if the combat style of a cleric is defend+miracle..what do you wear armour for?

mazarmormuk
Veteran
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:47 pm

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#67 Post by mazarmormuk » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:56 pm

but that doesnt matter much..thing is:

cleric meets skragna:
skragna knows he got xx seconds time to hit and run until he gets in life danger.
skragna knows he can repeat that how often he wants until he crits.
cleric knows he got a chance to die each second.
makes 0 kills/kill chance for the cleric, while skragna got his 1:xx chance to crit.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#68 Post by luminier » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:20 pm

I completely agree with Aslak and Mazar here.

Complaining about not getting a OHKO and getting peppered by miracles for it is not really an argument.

As for the second part, I feel like miracle cast times are pretty balanced and speeding them up based on mood wouldn't really reflect how mood frenzy works in other classes.

It's an idea, but maybe lets focus on brainstorming for that instead of why Skragna doesn't get a OHKO everytime he faces a cleric. :lol:
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

glorfindel
Hero
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:08 pm

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#69 Post by glorfindel » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:54 am

Reading all those responses in the last page or so do really make me sad. I can understand someone not wishing to be cut in their power, but heck. Right now, from my point of view:

cleric:
- can hide in Mithril shell, mood defend
- can cast one bone spear, heavens fire or smite and I'm done for.
- can use a shield to further enhance defense
- can use miracle to knock me off my feet and then go twohanded frenzy on me to
finish.

me:
- I got no chance to actually one hit a cleric. Well, elf even with 2h weapon frenzy, no chance
- I got about 16 seconds to pull one shaolin trick that might, under very rare
circumstances, buys me another 5 seconds.
- even if I manage to break 3 limbs of the cleric, knock him to the ground and confuse
him, the cleric will still disable me, set me on fire, make me bleed and whatnot like
nothing happened.

=> conclusion: metal shell cleric means light armoured fighter, shao or not, has no chance.
hit and run + missiles.

Aslak
Master
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:58 am

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#70 Post by Aslak » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:23 pm

Not saying Shaos can do much against a cleric, but from what I have seen them doing against trolls, they can break necks quite easily.

But also, the problem of the shaolin is not the cleric, but the problem that they have nothing to seriously penetrate heavy armours. This also counts against a fighter.

But as a cleric, you also have nothing to kill a foe that does not stay to die on purpose. Everyone beyond newbie age can flee the trap miracle quite easily, I never managed to keep a foe trapped for more then 2 or 3 tries to escape, most often they flee on the first or second.

And against a cleric (using miracles), armours are not helping either, so a lightarmoured fighter has a MUCH bigger chance to kill the cleric. Even onehanded weapons in decent hands are easily able to pierce even the heaviest armours when you cast miracles and I have been beaten to plump by two onehanded weapons in very fast time (much faster then I could ever hope to kill with miracles) and with no crits included.
From my view, in most cases, armours do not prevent damage taken, they prevent (or lower chance) to get a crit on you.

Clerics do not make you bleed, clerics do not crit, clerics do not block exists and clerics are very easy to hit when they cast.
I as a cleric fear fighters a lot more then I fear other clerics.

Wade
Professional
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:35 pm

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#71 Post by Wade » Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:36 pm

Aslak wrote: Clerics do not make you bleed...
bonespear bleeds... But that's only one group of clerics.

glorfindel
Hero
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:08 pm

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#72 Post by glorfindel » Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:28 pm

I was of course throwing clerics into one pot, apologies for that.

I was indeed refering to bonespear. The most hated miracle for me, in regards for disabling your legs (which is a critical I suppose, but I see it nearly every hit), making you bleed and often making me vbs in that one hit, thus locking me in place and blocking all my specials. But setting my little armour on fire is not really any better there.

As for fighters. I can do a lot of things to fighters that gives me the upper hand. Ask poWade, she's spared me enough to know the drill. But a cleric can ignore all that ,he can _always_ hit, no matter what I do, safe from one-hitting them.

As for critting.. well, nearly every monster has no armour, so the critical chance is quite high for all fighter types including the Shaolin. Against an armed fighter... a shao has more problems then other types of fighter, I give you that. Still, that's not the point.

The point is, that every other type of combat forces you to sacrifice some defence for offence and you have chances to miss. Except if you are a cleric. Then you can hit everything and no matter how beaten up you are while channeling your power, you will still score devastating hits.

Mogwai
Veteran
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:15 pm

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#73 Post by Mogwai » Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:37 pm

Everyone understands the value shao-lin's PVE type skill set.

The Shao-lin fighting style can be potent in pvp if you have both speed and strength.
(Shao-lin skills can give a favorable skillset to do such)

The shao-lin weapons are rp worthy yet lack the merit to be used in pvp (Some of the other guild weapons might be used but I can't see anyone touching the nun-chaku-staffs due to their lower offense(nice to have but breaking all the gems is disheartening ).

Long ago I mentioned the shao-lin would benefit from some sort of monk spade/Hook Swords. (TBH back in the day I just wanted more cool weapons to rp with :P ) (I saw a lot of shao-lin carry thurse swords around to manage the lack of lethal ability--problematically their too heavy for the shao-lin and automatically cannot deflect if used in two hands--delia mentioned mithril weapons and yes it ends up pretty mandatory)

Admittedly I can't for the life of me see that many situations where a shao-lin sees the need to fight an Asral Cleric.

Bone Spears are rough indeed. Offensive playstyle is key against clerics because they indeed will not miss but as mazar mentioned the OHK or crit is the bane of a cleric(hit and run can be extremely favorable for the melee fighter).

I've seen Elves be effective against death priests as melee fighters but they are very rare. (hit and run, in and out)
Very few actually pull off melee fighters that are elf or half-elf(while they both make remarkable casters/craftsmen/rangers). (never really seen a dynamic half-elf melee fighter)

There are some significant perks to being an elf (age well, high dex-agi-int-wis, ability to see through layers of darkness, hide and sneak extremely well) One must ask how much a straight up stand and fighting style really fits the elf in the modern geas especially when they have both the versatility and potential to shine brightly in other avenues then straight up non-stealth melee combat.

Aslak
Master
Posts: 240
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:58 am

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#74 Post by Aslak » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:41 pm

glorfindel wrote: The point is, that every other type of combat forces you to sacrifice some defence for offence and you have chances to miss. Except if you are a cleric. Then you can hit everything and no matter how beaten up you are while channeling your power, you will still score devastating hits.
But as a cleric you give up a great deal of your defense when you call for a miracle. Even against monsters, I often hesitate to cast when they carry heavy twohanded weapons as they WILL hit then, and they will hit with a greatly increased chance of a critical hit.

mazarmormuk
Veteran
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:47 pm

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#75 Post by mazarmormuk » Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:15 pm

every miracle is buildt with aspects and types.
-effects depend on aspect resistances (fire,water,air,death,..)
-the ability to get the miracle granted is based on the types (mental, verbal, gesture)

i know there is not much at all you can do as a shaolin there except breaking hands.

both, hunting and defence, is hard to generalize over all clerics types, but i would place sathonites a hunting cleric(skulls/blocking undeads/2-h spears/bonespear) and taniels a defence cleric (healing/blood clotting), aslrals stay in between (precasted miracles/flame renewal)
however, in the sum:
you can hardly kill clerics and they will hardly manage to hunt you down.

If you lower clerics in weapon combat, you will increase that effect (clerics will go defence/shield/miracle and statik like a missile base)

if we need changes here and as i dont like to play a missile base, i ld suggest (without having a detailled all-option-solution):
-skills system of aspects and types
-short praying time, then waiting for the miracle
(thats how i imagine a god-cleric communication)
-praying articulation gets influenced by attacks/hits/crits and influences waiting time +/- and miracle power +/- (unknown to both caster and opponent)
-a more common way to use resistances (f.e. development in magic gems)
-a chance to dodge miracles (based on theosophy/agi/armour) and also low chance of a miracle death crit (some way to also end a fight) (f.e. hitting foes that fled after the praying time)

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#76 Post by luminier » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:46 pm

Aslak wrote:But as a cleric you give up a great deal of your defense when you call for a miracle. Even against monsters, I often hesitate to cast when they carry heavy twohanded weapons as they WILL hit then, and they will hit with a greatly increased chance of a critical hit.
Twohanders are a worry for all characters. Luminier does not have the ability to cast and I get hit very regularly (death critical) in mood defend, with a good shield skill and high armour skills, buffs etc. If he did have the ability to cast, surely he would be hit more.

But to say you give up a great deal of defense is a bit of an over estimation. Perhaps a novice character would certainly give up quite a bit of defence to cast but not as much as an experienced one.

Also another modifier to keep in mind that you might not have considered. When you have 4 mobs attacking you, you fight and defend worse than you would one on one.

For example, during a spar with two fairly experienced characters and two newbies against Luminier, the newbies could actually land hits on me and I could barely kill the best fighter on their team. And they used 0 team tactics in that fight, it was just a straight up fight. Normally in a spar, one on one luminier can take these characters out without even getting a scratch. Put them together? Luminier has no chance.

That is how most NPC mobs act. Take insects for example. One insect or two alone isn't that bad. But 4 at once? Probability of getting hit goes up and you have a 4v1 scenario making you fight overall worse. And then you start casting? Even less defence. Start getting hit -even- more.

I think thats why to Aslak perhaps, a character who doesn't devote tons of time to defence, would see that casting a miracle has a great affect on his ability to defend himself.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#77 Post by luminier » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:42 pm

I also tend to agree with Mogwai and Glorfindel. having played a few shaolin, you are very good in PVE because of the lack of armour that greenskins or undead wear. And you are especially good against undead when you hit black belt.

In pvp you have to rely on something that isn't your shaolin skills (armour drum... salto... tackle, still "okay"). In PVP as a shaolin I probably could make an effective human. I would pretty much just play like Delmon does. But in a fight against a cleric where I am trapped, thats death. But an elf? Elves pretty much don't have a good chance against clerics. Darkelves are stronger than elves naturally so it's easier for them. Elves and halflings are pretty screwed given that PVP for a Shaolin relies on their straight up combat ability, not the martial arts.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#78 Post by Delia » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:48 am

Chi could probably enchance the chance and effect of critical hits for the finder arts such as knock and shock and their advanced forms. Armour drum always remained bit of a mystery for me as cycling through your specials I might rather do a slam, elbow, knee or shockpoke if not done already.

As for trolls...the monks learn to juggle with trolls before they learn how to juggle with babies. Shaos are THE troll hunting guild. Really, every novice should have a tackle training regimen with trolls as opponents. That is how Yegerfin raised Delia :D

Combat in general...best combat skill is team combat. 'Nuff said. Priest are very tough one on one. So...never fight priests one on one. Angry Mob! Pitchforks! The unfairer the fight the better! Fighting a priest alone is asking for trouble, unless your character is a Conan-class fighter with a chance for solid critical hits. Or if the priest is way smaller than you.

Also...many of the quirks Geas combat has comes from the fact moving between rooms is instantaneous, fleeing is basically instantaneous and fights become initiated instantaneously. Fights are very hectic affairs. There was a thread somewhere where this was discussed.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#79 Post by luminier » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:56 am

But do clerics really -need- to be that tough one on one?

I made this topic to attempt to get some ideas going to make it so they are more balanced with all the other guilds and characters in the game. As it stands, all the clerical guilds are definitely above the power of any other guild in PVP, and in most cases PVE.

as was stated earlier, having a more reliable way to interrupt miracles would be nice. it would also make the shaolin actually scary instead of just "set them ablaze and forget" or "spear them once, they die" or "iceskin procs then they get killed".

Also I think someone stated breaking a hand would be enough to stop miracles. Currently I don't think a broken hand does stop miracles. But I think any critical -should-. And right now only a broken arm stops gesture miracles.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

#80 Post by luminier » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:09 am

That reminds me of another thing... Why did Taniel Clerics get a two handed light sword that can only be wielded in cloth?

That is really the most backwards idea for real combat.

Cloth means you need to be able to triple harden your gear to have leather armour like defence. That sounds good, but it's not. If people wanted leather armour that was light, they would wear leather armour... and then they actually get -more- armour because they can harden their padded tunic and be more defensive.

The twohanded sword. Firstly, twohanders are not made for parrying or defence they are made for doing damage in the front row. But you can only cast it in cloth. You get slammed in the hand, you drop your sword (really easy to do because of the cloth), now you have to recast. Basically 100% useless in the fight. You can't deal damage, you can't heal (because you have to recast the sword), basically you either run or hope some Crusader comes along to fight for you.

Like I get if Taniel clerics are supposed to be the weaker clergy because they are the support class type for the Crusaders. But why not give them tools that support, bows are supportive, long spears are supportive, why not a long light spear? Why not a bow that shoots weak light arrows? Make the spear/bow a focus?

Instead the Taniel clerics were neutered from being able to hold their own in chainmail to not having a solo capability unless they paid for their own mithril armours or use stock leather.

As I understand the Asrals got better armours and I think that change was for the better. Their old chainmail was pretty meh. I do like the fact they can choose from a variety of different armours and that they all have cool buffs on them. I REALLY like the changes makes to the asral armours.

Sathos got hit on armours too. As I understand Phelan doesn't wear the guild armour when he used to use it all the time. I haven't played a satho in a while but maybe a more recent satho can comment on the change there.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Post Reply