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Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

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Aslak
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:13 pm

Delia wrote:Well, characters like Luminier cannot be mentioned when discussing game balance, IMHO ;) And that weapon he wielded, too.


They exactly CAN be mentioned and MUST be mentioned. After all, he started this thread. Nothing stops any other warrior char to become as strong and I have seen chars much stronger then him.

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Delia
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:19 pm

My point only is that with characters of that magnitude doing stuff, balance discussions can be somewhat hard to actually discuss clearly. Goes for other characters besides Luminier as well.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:22 pm

jep, ghalt.

about luminier..i remember him doing exactly the same with me..well, and if luminier doesnt count against me, who does against whom? mazar against skragna?-would be the same

the inability of freelancers, 1-h-weapon-wielders, martial-arts etc does not necessarily mean an OP of clerics, i rather think shaolins and rangers should be developed.

we in this thread seem to ignore earthly power, a bonespear pulling you vbs,bleeding and nailed to the ground is a result of weeks and months on ep (if ep is equally balanced is another question)

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Mogwai » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:39 pm

I know this has no chance in hell in going through but it would solve a lot of problems in geas but it would definitely bring me back into geas as a crusader:

1. It will make the crusade more popular to play
2. Pot stirring opportunities instead of react to rule breakers yada yada
3. More variation than just religious guilds constantly fighting.

If people want the crusade to be a standalone guild it needs different directives/capabilities: More profit oriented

New directive: acquire gold from forostar from city tributes or collecting "tolls"
1)
Change the rules to make it more attractive to more characters (monks literally have a less restrictive lifestyle. (it's a sad day when a dwarf can't drink etc etc)

I mean what character would logically choose to be a crusader with the current benefits: no money, no kids, no booze, I have to follow this persons word like a fanatic, put life on the line and try and kill people in an unending war with evil.

If the character was an orphan and brainwashed maybe but I feel like every forostar mother tells their kid to go into medicine or being a mage over being a crusader.

Remove the natural ties to the good guilds:
-Replace Unicorns with warhorses. Crusade shouldn't be associated with a god otherwise too imbalanced.
-Bring back rider lances?, remove invocations but keep crbattle, improve base armours/weapons.

Traitor RP:

If no reparations are made:death but it can be made via:

Earning money for the profit oriented crusade and in turn the commanding officer level crusaders will be able to get better trained npc followers (more on that below)
-permaenemy is cheesy and stale and goes on with the endless conflict part (conflict is good but an endless one is boring and repetitive)

-you wanna end being a permanent enemy? pay up #some fee here. Even if I lose your services my knights will be well fed and trained well from the funds.

2)To alleviate the loss of Taniel and Evren presence, commanding officers in the crusade can now have subordinates:

The goal of the crusade should be to acquire profit.
Greater profit means better trained/equipped soldiers, better trained soldiers mean greater ability to expand their ability to conquer.
-more gold means you can train and have more troops in your reserve.

With the gold can improve the training facilities and conditions for improved knights, esquires and squire npcs. pay their salaries etc etc(shouldn't be huge bankroll so that one would have to grind hardcore to just pay the troops).

Knight gets-squire level npc
Chevalier can command an esquire level npc
Lord Marshall can command a knight level npc

maybe can't have warhorse and soldier together in party for balance reason

Pros:
-Soldiers can travel where a unicorn cannot-cheaper than unicorn
-more attractive to more characters in geas
-no more perma enemies while still providing a meaningful penalty that benefits the crusade in the long run by providing better trained npc followers
-distinctive hedonistic gameplay that is less god and more greed oriented.
-fun gameplay and increased varied opportunties.

Cons:
-Sorry Bronies.
-Loses natural allies.
-difficult to balance
-lots of code

yeah pretty much a terrible idea probably but it'd be fune :twisted:

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Delia
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:51 pm

Begins to sound a bit like what Legion was. Vaguely like. Kinda cool actually.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Sairina » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:17 pm

I kind of like the idea of a fighter guild that isn't tied to a god... though rather in addition to the Crusaders than instead of them. It would still cut a little of their power by drawing away potential new members (and by being a potential ally against the Crusade).

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:29 pm

Sairina wrote:I kind of like the idea of a fighter guild that isn't tied to a god... though rather in addition to the Crusaders than instead of them. It would still cut a little of their power by drawing away potential new members (and by being a potential ally against the Crusade).


I doubt we have the playerbase to support another guild.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Sairina » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:30 pm

Aslak wrote:
Sairina wrote:I kind of like the idea of a fighter guild that isn't tied to a god... though rather in addition to the Crusaders than instead of them. It would still cut a little of their power by drawing away potential new members (and by being a potential ally against the Crusade).


I doubt we have the playerbase to support another guild.

True, but then again, that does work both ways - with more guilds to chose from, more players might find a choice they want to play and stick with Geas.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Allurana » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:42 pm

mazarmormuk wrote:the inability of freelancers, 1-h-weapon-wielders, martial-arts etc does not necessarily mean an OP of clerics, i rather think shaolins and rangers should be developed.


IMO a desirable balance would be a situation where any build could beat any other build assuming intelligent play and feasible stats/skills.

I personally don't care much for an "X beats Y beats Z" approach to things as I feel it creates a rather stale situation after a while.

That being said, I do agree with you that the issue is not Clerics alone but rather the relationship between twohanders, clerics, and onehanders as a whole.

we in this thread seem to ignore earthly power, a bonespear pulling you vbs,bleeding and nailed to the ground is a result of weeks and months on ep (if ep is equally balanced is another question)


I can't speak for the more heartier characters of the game, but as an older elf that didn't ignore the con stat, I remember even averageish EQ being enough to take a large chunk out of my health in a single hit. Combining that with extra effects like bleeding/crippled legs or burning, and that would be enough to already determine the outcome of the fight with certain chars.

That being said, I do sort of remember sub-average EQ sucking quite badly, but I don't think any guilds got to that point unless they were completely inactive/neglecting their EQ.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:10 pm

i cant remember seeing _sathonites down at such a level, neither.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:30 pm

for poMogwai, I think we can continue our talk via skype/PM. I love having these talks with you :) Get lots of good info. Not that I don't want to discuss it here, I just have so much to say!

for poAslak, Fighting a character more skilled than your character while not being able to parry is scary. Keep in mind Lumi is over 300 days old with a scary weapon. He is more an exception than a rule as Delia mentions. (much like Delia is a mage exception not a rule) Ill let you know that in our first encounter with your bolts and cleave I was quite a bit less healthy than not feeling good! :) Lets just say if the roles were reversed, I would not want to face Luminier unless I was using some dirty tactic.

Also EP was mentioned. Truly I was shocked that even with Asral EP lower than average (I think?), two bolts and a cleave bringing me to deaths door and bleeding heavily (this is with the best magic protection a Crusader can have) I was very intrigued. Maybe your bolt miracle is as powerful as I said before? :D

for poGhalt, that may be true for your character. But other characters in the past have definitely teamed with the Asrals against the Crusaders or other enemies. Though maybe you are right and that isn't the case now a days, but again I don't see much in that codex that limits Asralites. Also isn't beheading corpses mutilation?

for poMazar, twohanders are very strong, but at least everyone has the ability to use twohanders equally no? A cleric can two hand just like a Crusader can. I remember fighting Atimus a long time ago, and he was about as strong as Luminier at the time. He didn't bother with miracles much and it was a good brawl. I agree with you that all the other guilds should be developed a bit more to be viable in PVP combat.

for poMogwai,
totally down with your new guild. Definitely sounds like the Legion. I wish I could join it with Lumi =(
Could always just make that guild... you know... RP wise. Id join you with an alt! We could be bros!
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:17 am

luminier wrote:for poAslak,
Also EP was mentioned. Truly I was shocked that even with Asral EP lower than average (I think?), two bolts and a cleave bringing me to deaths door and bleeding heavily (this is with the best magic protection a Crusader can have) I was very intrigued. Maybe your bolt miracle is as powerful as I said before? :D

No, my cleave is as powerful. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, after the first fight, your karma is so black down, that the miracles ain't doing much anymore. Oh, and tested with Mazar a bit after the first, he could not hurt me with miracles at all when I had resist on. Neither bolts nor hfires could bring me past slightly hurt, even after 5 in a row. So magic resistance is the key, it almost completely nulls miracles.
Also we did some tests with "turtle tactics" with full armour and shield. While Mazar was casting, I was constantly critting him, about half of the attacks ended in crits, the others just in heavy hits.
Now please do not tell me that Mazar is too weak or not old enough to be a good comparison.
Miracles are good and strong against people not using twohanders, but twohanders ARE the bane of casting. They are rockpaperstone balance type of weapon. Though I must admit, I still do not know what counters twohanders effectively.

luminier wrote:for poMazar, twohanders are very strong, but at least everyone has the ability to use twohanders equally no? A cleric can two hand just like a Crusader can.

Tell that to the low strength halflings or elves. They cannot really use twohanders effectively. The use of twohanders might not be linked to guilds (though some guilds have to favor different stats over strength) but to race and attributes.

luminier wrote:
for poMogwai,
totally down with your new guild. Definitely sounds like the Legion. I wish I could join it with Lumi =(
Could always just make that guild... you know... RP wise. Id join you with an alt! We could be bros!

Never understood why the legion was disbanded anyways. Liked my old little Legioneer back then, if I would just recall his name

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby glorfindel » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:30 am

we in this thread seem to ignore earthly power, a bonespear pulling you vbs,bleeding and nailed to the ground is a result of weeks and months on ep (if ep is equally balanced is another question)


My statement at least didn't ignore earthly power. The last result of 'vbs by bonespear' was during an encounter with Phelan and there, as far as I am aware, the sathonite EP wasn't very good. very sure it was not above average. IF they had max earthly power, I would rather been 'barely alive'. Well, elven monk... my chars con is not exactly impressive, but beside the point.

To some other things being said here:

Of course we can continue the arms race and boost other guilds a bit here and there, but that will NOT solve the problem in my eyes, esp. since clerics in my eyes need to be more powerful then the shaolin and rangers of this world. We have a lot of potential allies and come in vast bunches and are usually quite agreeable. You guys tear the world apart with your fanatism... and thus need more power to back it up.

HOWEVER, and that is still my statement, there's a difference between powerful and 'You are out of luck if you meet me'. The main thing that irks me is the lack of 'chances'. Sure, you are powerful, but I gotta have a chance to toss you over. And if it's being me clever and the cleric dumb and me being lucky... but without any minor chance to succeed I personally will always consider every cleric OP.

Also, of course we can pinpoint balance on the Delias, Luminiers, Mogwais, Glorfindels and Mazarmormuks of this world. We won't do ourselves much good though, because the main view need to lie on the average character, with the 'highbies' only being a secondary focus.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Wade » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:59 am

Concerning magic resistance being so effective, it sounds like there has to be something more behind how much it protects someone... Because revenant and deathpriest miracles always seem to murder me, despite the times when I do have magical resistance.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:11 am

Hah magic resistance aint that great when two bolts knock you to deaths door.

Revenants hurt me a bit too but luckily their miracle spam is more random than a player.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:20 am

Well, i believe Karma on both ends plays a big role as well. When I fought Phelan, I never feared his bonespears much, but his meele abilities.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Wade » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:36 am

ahhh. so mazar hitting you with miracles that aren't meant to hurt people of your karma and you have magical resistance doesn't hurt you too much?

my bright shiny karma isn't so great after all :p


EDIT:

Recent... erm testing thanks to your local favorite cannibal/mass murderer ended with after 3 evil miracles I am very bad shape and a little bleeding, while i do have a bit of magical resistance. Seeing as he didn't swing at all this doesn't seem really OP when I did a fair bit of damage with my combat as well.
Last edited by Wade on Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:25 am

bolt searches karma extremes to hit hard on, hfire is not affected by karma at all.

still is is sure that a fire resistance of a taniel cleric is different to the ones of an asral cleric, a mage, a ring or whatelse exists there.
i could hardly hit aslak at all, the same test against a protected mage burns 2-3 armours on each hfire.
a bolt on aslak, even without any protection, turns out to be a flies fart.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:32 am

ah, i have to add that miracles strength isnt fix neither, even on the same ep,
a miracle got fails, low to high effects and crits (no death crits).
the frequency of fail and crit does extremely depend on the settings of the special miracle and is generally also bound to your dis.
ep then influences this dramatically.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:18 pm

there is leather,cloth,chain,scale and plate, twohanded and onehanded weapons of a dozen weapon types, speed and con, a lot of specials and skills
and several races.
each has benefits and drawbacks.
additionally there is the point beeing a cleric, a mage, an alchemist or a fighter and whatnotelse.

a halfling in plate with a heavy twohander wont rock.
and there are combinations that rock extremely if their are set together,
like a dwarven asralite in plate and shield against insects or other npc groups.
or a crusader tshahark with a great spear in 1vs1

each of these hundred aspects has its own personal top of benefit in a growing time of a character.

if i now see how glorfindel is unable to stand against any cleric and how luminier crits aslak (and did the same against mazar some years ago)... and after the broad agreement that clerics need a certain strength to be playable -but- meanwhile should have a chance to lose 1vs1...

sorry ppl, thats impossible to balance and personally, i dont feel asral clerics as overpowered within the games guild-net. I would say we manage with a bit of luck not to be overrun.

there is maybe one conclusion left for me:
highbies are extremely focussed on their special abilities and ll lose to 99% against even younger foes where they are not qualified.
or they are not focussed and lose against the specialists of the same age to 98%


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