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Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

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mazarmormuk
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:50 am

Thats for the record and all beeing interrested:

Asral warcleric dwarf vs. crusader dwarf:
Asral dwarf is
- about 270 days old
- has 17 fighting skills at 100, no skill lower that 100 was in use
- was fully boosted
- strength halfway to ultimate, agility reached ultimate
- did use a holy fauchard with extra magical power against people with good or evil karma


******Fight number one: definately less than 30 seconds:

You attack Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie].

Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] swings his long leaf-bladed spear at your left
hand, crashes against your gauntlet and bruises your left hand critically,
leaving a nasty, open wound.

Your wounds start to bleed.

You smash your short fauchard at the swift white male unicorn's
left hind leg, but it dodges your attack.
You raise your fauchard above your head and suddenly release one
hand from its grip as you let the fauchard fall behind you. You roll your
shoulder to swing your fauchard up and under Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie]'s
defenses, but he manages to parry the attack.
You are not feeling very well, slightly degraded and extremely alert.

The swift white male unicorn kicks with its right fore hoof at your left
leg, but your chain-leggings deflects all damage.

The swift white male unicorn kicks with its left fore hoof at your right
leg, but your chain-leggings deflects all damage.
The swift white male unicorn hits you with a hard kick and bruises your
left leg slightly.

The swift white male unicorn thrusts its beautiful spiralled horn at your
torso, but your heavy chainmail deflects all damage.
You are physically not feeling very well and mentally slightly degraded.
You are bleeding heavily.
You are extremely alert.

Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] dismounts the swift white male unicorn.
You feel your blood boiling in your veins.
Your wounds stopped bleeding.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] changes the grip on his spear and thrusts it
forcefully towards your left hand, but your armour absorbs all damage.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] unwields a spear.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] mounts the swift white male unicorn.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] wields a spear in his right hand and left hand.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] looks at you.
You ram your armoured knee violently into Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie]'s
left leg.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie]'s wounds start to bleed.

You look at Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie].
He is slightly hurt.
He is bleeding.
You surmise that he wears additional body armours and clothing under this.
You think he is wearing jewelry.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie]'s wounds stopped bleeding.

Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] studies you carefully.
You use a gap in Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie]'s defense and try to smash
your armoured head into his right leg, but he avoids your attempt.

The swift white male unicorn kicks with its right fore hoof at your left
leg, but your chain-leggings deflects all damage.
The swift white male unicorn hits you with a hard kick and bruises your
right foot slightly.
Your wounds start to bleed.

The swift white male unicorn kicks with its left fore hoof at your torso,
but your heavy chainmail deflects all damage.
You are physically not in a good shape and mentally slightly degraded.
You are bleeding.
You are extremely alert.

The swift white male unicorn thrusts its beautiful spiralled horn at your
right hand, but it bounces off your gauntlet harmlessly.
Your wounds stopped bleeding.

You feint an attack with your short fauchard at the swift white male
unicorn's large white body. Alas, your enemy doesn't fall for it, and your
strike is lost.

Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] shakes his head.
The swift white male unicorn trots north.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] rides north.
You travel a long distance north.
You attack Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie].
You attack the swift white male unicorn.
The swift white male unicorn hits you with a hard kick and bruises your
abdomen slightly.
Your wounds start to bleed.

Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] thrusts his long leaf-bladed spear at your
left hand, penetrates your gauntlet and drills it very deep into your left
hand, causing a nasty, deep wound.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] pierces his long leaf-bladed spear deep
into your left hand and leaves a gaping wound.
ARRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!

You are terribly hurt, slightly degraded and extremely alert.

The swift white male unicorn thrusts its beautiful spiralled horn at
your left leg, pierces through your chain-leggings and drills it slightly
into your left leg.

The swift white male unicorn kicks with its left fore hoof at your right
leg, but your chain-leggings deflects all damage.
You travel a long distance southwest.

You are barely alive, slightly degraded and extremely alert.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:55 am

well, simply good luck, fight number 2, after rehealing, preaching and full up boosting again. If it were 20 seconds, it was long:


The swift white male unicorn trots in from east.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] rides in.
The swift white male unicorn attacks you.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] attacks you.
You attack Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie].

The swift white male unicorn kicks with its right fore hoof at your right
foot, but your boot deflects all damage.

Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] thrusts his long leaf-bladed spear at your
left leg, penetrates your chain-leggings and drills it very deep into your
left leg, causing a nasty, deep wound.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] pierces his long leaf-bladed spear deep
into your left leg and leaves a gaping wound.
ARRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!

Your wounds start to bleed.
The swift white male unicorn hits you with a hard kick and bruises your
left foot.

The swift white male unicorn fumbles and fails to attack.

You thrust your burning fauchard of solid flames (glowing blue) at the
swift white male unicorn's large white body, impale its brown saddlecloth
and wound it.
The swift white male unicorn's wounds start to bleed.
You raise your fauchard of solid flames above your head and
suddenly release one hand from its grip as you let the fauchard of solid
flames fall behind you. You roll your shoulder to swing your fauchard of
solid flames up and under Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie]'s defenses, but he manages
to dodge the attack.
You are not in a good shape, not feeling very well and very alert.

The swift white male unicorn thrusts its beautiful spiralled horn at
your torso, impales your heavy chainmail and drills it slightly into your
torso.
The swift white male unicorn snorts happily.
The brown saddlecloth of the swift white male unicorn starts to burn.
You are physically in a bad shape and mentally not feeling very well.
You are bleeding awfully.

You are very alert.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] dismounts the swift white male unicorn.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] changes the grip on his spear and thrusts it
forcefully towards you. He slashes into your left hand and hurts you
seriously. he then twists his weapon before he pulls it out again.
ARRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!
You drop your fauchard of solid flames in pain.
As the fauchard leaves your hands, the flames extinguish and before the
fauchard disappears.

Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] unwields a spear.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] mounts the swift white male unicorn.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] wields a spear in his right hand and left hand.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] looks at you.
You draw your short fauchard from the sheath of your wide leather belt (with
one scabbard and one sheath attached to it).
You are terribly hurt, not feeling very well and very alert.
You wield the fauchard in your right hand and left hand.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] orders the swift white male unicorn to attack you.
You're not ready yet.
You are barely alive, not feeling very well and very alert.
You feel your blood boiling in your veins.
Your wounds stopped bleeding.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] (riding on an unicorn), Virle[male halfling] and a
swift white male unicorn.
You are fighting Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] (foe) and the swift white male unicorn (2. foe).
You are at deaths door, not feeling very well and very alert.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] looks at you.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] dismounts the swift white male unicorn.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] unwields a spear.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] mounts the swift white male unicorn.
Rex[male dwarf,cruzzie] wields a spear in his right hand and left hand.
The brown saddlecloth of the swift white male unicorn is burning and hurting
it.
The swift white male unicorn tries to extinguish the brown saddlecloth 1 but
fails.
You are physically at deaths door and mentally not feeling very well.
You are very alert.
You try to ram your armoured knee into the swift white male
unicorn's left fore leg, but it avoids your attack.

You smash your short fauchard at the swift white male unicorn's
right hind leg, but it dodges your attack.
You travel a long distance southwest.


sorry ppl, i neither see an OP of the cleric nor do i know where else i should train my stats and skills to.
maybe thats a bit about the same than your situation, glorfindel, vs. a cleric.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby ferranifer » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:06 pm

How big is Rex?

I'm not sure if luck, outplay or overpower but it is terrifying to think how that fight would look against a target that is NOT Mazar.

Maybe we do need to talk about the Crusader kit. Mind you, that doesn't exclude clerics being OP compared with the rest of the food chain. That fight already looks like a clash of giants. How are others gonna be able to catch up in the arms race?

Edited for clarity.
Last edited by ferranifer on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:15 pm

i quickly have to add:

before you come up with "no wonder, you should have used....."
remove your fingers from the keyboard and quickly read:
this char is created 1998-99, i started with the mud in beta (like many others here i guess), i know the miracle effects and my char.
whatever you have, a dwarven taniel cleric or a tshahark warcleric of whatever age, you dont have anything that compares to exactly that mazar with his choices out of hundred possibilities to join, use, wear, wield:

This was the most effective way to hunt and kill rex for mazar.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:19 pm

hehe, i cant stop it, this thread ll soon be called "what does mazar have to say?"

no, fer, i didnt put that to show how OP the crucs are (well, maybe a bit :) )
i do neither think maz is a weakling.

i do show an example of specialized highbies going against each other.
maz is here nearly useless, but he hardly cares if he meets 10 or 50 insects in a place.

Imo not the clerics are too strong, neither the crusade, but the world-developing war-highbie do-it-alone-chars are imo by far too specialized and reach on that levels frustrating strength (see lumis spear, mazars insects, glorfindels undead-killing and phelans undead-rising), while they stay on a level of a 50-day-old in other areas.

there is nothing i can do now to change maz into another direction, his stats are far too much set to what they are, that surely counts for all old chars.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby ferranifer » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:06 pm

Ofc I don't think Maz is a weakling, far from that.

If what you're saying is that Rex is the paper to your rock... then well, I don't see how anyone else could be the scissors there?

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby rex » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:52 pm

Hey Mazar,

That fight definitely went the opposite of how I had expected it. In terms of comparing Rex and Mazar I would say we are nearly on par in terms of combats but you do have Rex beat by a little.

I have been gone from the game a while so I do not know the game mechanics that well but one thing to consider is how a fauchard performs against a spear. I don't know the answer to that.

Surprisingly, Rex was in mood wimpy that fight so I would say it was merely luck I got such good hits in. I had not used any Crusader boosts in either fight actually which was rather dumb on my part, although I was using a Crusader spear which we all know is at best an average weapon.

But looking at this from my perspective. This is what I saw and I was really confused at first how you did this till I saw your log of everything.

"He is in a very bad shape.
He is bleeding awfully.
He is very alert.
He is wearing .....

>Mazar draws his short fauchard from the sheath of his wide leather belt
(with one scabbard and one sheath attached to it).
Mazar wields a fauchard in his right hand and left hand.

You order Tee to attack.
>Mazar's wounds stopped bleeding."

So from bleeding awfully to wounds not bleeding at all..okay I think we can all admit that's pretty powerful...and yes I know you had to prepare prior to the battle for this and it would be differently if you were not prepared. Is it overpowered though? I'm not sure, in this case awfully --> not at all seems to be a little extreme.

In terms of this thread...are clerics too strong? I really have never played a cleric so I have only seen one side of the story..but my opinion is, both yes and no, depending on the miracle you are talking about. I'm sure some tweeking can be done here and there but overall I do like the system except for a few things....specifically how powerful bonespears/smites/bolts are...and those giant ghouls that crit my neck every 4th swing.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:08 pm

Personally I am a bit interested how that would go without the unicorn in the team.

Also regarding Mazar's miracle blood clotter and stuff...if a 270 days old character could not do something that can be seen as a bit extreme, who could?
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:09 pm

no idea, really..a sathonite cleric??

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:14 pm

Yea but Sathos have to fight against so many different things that it puts Asrals to shame. Their novices are probably indoctrinated by listening to 'Manowar - Fighting The World' just to get the idea how their future lives will be like.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:05 pm

Delia wrote:Yea but Sathos have to fight against so many different things that it puts Asrals to shame. Their novices are probably indoctrinated by listening to 'Manowar - Fighting The World' just to get the idea how their future lives will be like.


Actually, the Sathos fight against pretty much the same people as the Asrals at the moment. Just that they have a much much much much much better stock of abilities for it :|

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Allurana » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:43 pm

mazarmormuk wrote:maybe thats a bit about the same than your situation, glorfindel, vs. a cleric.


Looks about on par of leather/dual-wielder vs. cleric from my experiences, except armor instead of unicorns soaking the damage, and flamebirds + multiple pieces of armor lighting up on fire being the damage rather than spear crits.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:54 pm

ah, i did miss your answers, sorry.

yes, i was berserked..berserk stops the bloodloss every now and then, thats the "crit" of that miracle on high level
and yes, thats a reason why you did hit well
but..for slow mazar, armour is the main protection..you critted twice through mithril plate gauntlets in your wimpy :)...parry and dodge are secondary, and arent completely off with berserk.
believe me, it would not have been much better if i came with shield in defence..but much harder to hit you..and follow you if you run
we should really try that without that unicorn soaking all my hits

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:38 pm

Well this is easy to explain.

Rex was twohanding in frenzy. Mazar was berserked, which means low defence. Mazar was twohanding his own weapon which means parrying is harder, big weapons have a hard time parrying. Mazar's plate armour is directly countered by swinging/smashing and thrusting blows which Rex's spear was doing.

What is plate good against? Small-average hits that it can just deflect off easily. Like the crazed insects Sathonys sends.

Blunt weapons beat plate. Twohanded thrusts beat plate. Axes beat plate.

Couple all this with good RNG from Rex and bad RNG from Mazar. Mazar basically gave rex that fight.


EDIT: Rex was in wimpy, my bad. Mood wimpy, new PVP meta.
Last edited by luminier on Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby ghalt » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:53 pm

Mazar was in chain and Rex was in mood wimpy man ^_^

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:53 pm

As Addenum, Luminier is 351 days old. I don't think days played means much after a while :)
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:54 pm

ghalt wrote:Mazar was in chain and Rex was in mood wimpy man ^_^



Didn't he say he was berserked and didn't he say mithril plate gauntlet?
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby ghalt » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:56 pm

Yes, I read something wrong. ^_^

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:39 pm

Ah okay. Also I find I don't hit any less hard in wimpy, I just don't feint/counter as much. In some scenarios I think wimpy might actually be worse to fight with especially if you have a really high fencing ability!
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:07 pm

ferranifer wrote:Ofc I don't think Maz is a weakling, far from that.

If what you're saying is that Rex is the paper to your rock... then well, I don't see how anyone else could be the scissors there?



Oh also, Lumi can beat Rex in a spar at least.
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