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Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:13 am

I sometimes let my mind wander to the days when there were characters from the game lore making appearances, such as Vlad. No wonder he stays in hiding these days.

Somehow I feel after reading this thread, that any discussions about balance is bit silly and non-sensical here. I mean, the characters mentioned here do not leave much, if any, wiggle room or breathing space for lesser beings when combat is discussed.

I think there should be discussion about things that other characters could do the combat monsters and mages and whatnots could not easily do that would have as clear and understandable effect on the game world as killing someone or being intimidating by sheer prowess alone.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:10 am

Lowbies don't usually respect others unless those others have high skill or they can kill or inconvenience the lowbies...

Take Ewelyn for example. Arguably the most dedicated cleric to the Taniel codex and everyone dismissed her as a total nut job because she, had no physical power or political power. She could condemn people from Elvandar, but that doesn't mean much if Elvandar doesn't mean anything to you.

Is that sort of what you mean Delia?
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:15 am

luminier wrote:
Take Ewelyn for example. Arguably the most dedicated cleric to the Taniel codex and everyone dismissed her as a total nut job because she, had no physical power or political power. She could condemn people from Elvandar, but that doesn't mean much if Elvandar doesn't mean anything to you.


I think Ewelyn is quite a bad example, as she failed to see IC realities and fell on her nose over and over because of that. Being an strict extremist does not mean everyone agrees with your path and at that time, even Taniel church did not agree about many things.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:25 am

The player mentality easily respects numbers more than anything else, yes, but we could try and act differently. For example, a highbie fighter could see beyond those plain rings and simply clothes and instead of "Oh, his combat skills must suck, he is of no consequence."one could try to see a real person in the game world.

Of course, do people in Geas respect power like players do?

Also, If there were, for example, more craft oriented characters and stuff for them to do, it would bring more dynamics to the game than who kill who and how. I really liked(like, really REALLY liked)Mogwai's guild idea as it involved having resources which is completely inconsequential at the moment on the larger scale. As controlling and utilizing resources are both different things, it might bring some different aspects to all the conflicts in the game.

Seems I am derailing myself here.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:14 am

Aslak wrote:I think Ewelyn is quite a bad example, as she failed to see IC realities and fell on her nose over and over because of that. Being an strict extremist does not mean everyone agrees with your path and at that time, even Taniel church did not agree about many things.


That is all very true. But the point remains, she couldve been claiming something more reasonable, and no one wouldve listened to that either.

@Delia
I don't think it's a derailment of yourself, but it's probably not appropriate for this topic. Maybe make a new one in roleplay?
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby anglachel » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:27 am

Yes, yes can need some more craftsman guilds. They produce rare goods that other need.
Like trapper (fur) -> Parchment maker (parchments) and tanner (leather) -> bookbinder (books) -> scribes fill the books with knowledge.
There also an unused guild-slot for race-guilds

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:45 am

luminier, i m a bit disappointed about your comments..

i especially placed a note to prevent people knowing my char better than i do.
did you ever play a 270 day old warcleric with focus on int/wis to stand heaps of insects?

have you ever tried to win with a cleric PvP against a twohanded crusader?
1, my leg was chain, my hand was plate, both got crits
2, chain is generally more sensible for thrusts, spear a mainly thrusting weapon
3, would you recommend a defence based on agility for a dwarf instead?
4, the flame fauchard got a weight of 1000 grams and extra parry bonus against rex, the short fauchard 1100, no big weapon was in use
5, would you want to HUNT and KILL rex with a lightning bolt? sorry man, he ll fight until the 3. or 4. bolt and then run..on a unicorn, and i stay with no chance to follow (forget trap miracles). the task was to hunt and kill rex, not to stand in there as long as possible.

i could add a dozen more points.
excuse if i sound a bit rude, but i feel it as rude to "easily" explain bad rpg without knowing quite some facts (which f.e. count for mazar way different than for nathan or aslak)

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Mogwai » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:46 am

luminier wrote:Lowbies don't usually respect others unless those others have high skill or they can kill or inconvenience the lowbies...

Take Ewelyn for example. Arguably the most dedicated cleric to the Taniel codex and everyone dismissed her as a total nut job because she, had no physical power or political power. She could condemn people from Elvandar, but that doesn't mean much if Elvandar doesn't mean anything to you.

Is that sort of what you mean Delia?
Delia wrote:The player mentality easily respects numbers more than anything else, yes, but we could try and act differently. For example, a highbie fighter could see beyond those plain rings and simply clothes and instead of "Oh, his combat skills must suck, he is of no consequence."one could try to see a real person in the game world.

Of course, do people in Geas respect power like players do?

Also, If there were, for example, more craft oriented characters and stuff for them to do, it would bring more dynamics to the game than who kill who and how. I really liked(like, really REALLY liked)Mogwai's guild idea as it involved having resources which is completely inconsequential at the moment on the larger scale. As controlling and utilizing resources are both different things, it might bring some different aspects to all the conflicts in the game.

Seems I am derailing myself here.
luminier wrote:
Aslak wrote:I think Ewelyn is quite a bad example, as she failed to see IC realities and fell on her nose over and over because of that. Being an strict extremist does not mean everyone agrees with your path and at that time, even Taniel church did not agree about many things.


That is all very true. But the point remains, she couldve been claiming something more reasonable, and no one wouldve listened to that either.

@Delia
I don't think it's a derailment of yourself, but it's probably not appropriate for this topic. Maybe make a new one in roleplay?


1. For this reason alone if it was an RP only guild it would fail quite horribly such as in the case with Ewelyn because as it's shown without legitimate pvp power or legitimate political power it wouldn't work.

Therefore if it's an RP only type deal it doesn't work if it isn't impactful to players in a meaningful way.

2. The current conflict RP really doesn't vary much from that from 5 years ago. It's basically like a script to me at this point.

"You are neutral! Evvviilll! Voices in head tell me you must die!"
-someone hunts someone, someone bans someone from city
-ostracization by group A
-blah blah talks smack and tries to provoke a response
-slander blah blah

It's just... predictable baits and responses.

Maybe Delia and I are the only one who wants more than just power character(s) vs. power character(s) in guild vs. guild. It literally feels as complex as a snowball fight these days.

Strategic acquisition of talent and utilization of resources and the value of gold would make things a lot more interesting.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby ferranifer » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:37 pm

I agree with Mogwai's sentiment, but...

Isn't the extreme polarization of the game world part of the problem here too? The world of Geas is basically run by religion and that is supported not only by player social constructs, but also by the actual guild designs and game mechanics. Isn't this discussion about precisely that? The basic arguing point is: are clerics too strong for the game world?

I guess I just don't see how adding new non religious conflict oriented guilds would help controlling the amount of power certain characters and factions have nowadays, unless something is done to the current paradigm as well. Most of the behavior of those players is a direct result of the absolutes of the game's design. I don't see how creating an economic layer will do anything to stop the clerics from having ridiculous social power, but maybe I'm just assuming that people would just use their religious and/or physical prowess to control any situation they don't like.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:57 pm

if you want to change that, you need to cut off highbies in general imo and maybe give them something else but pure strength. thats the main point leading the world in directions, and for me playing mazar, thats not really fun.
but thats highbies in general or in special guilds, not nessecarily clerics imo.
at least in arborea the reign of clerics isnt coded, and they didnt for @years.
its true though that the main thing what is all about is religion or maybe good and evil.
though i think thats a players problem, the guild system leaves space for a lot of different statements and positions also to other issues but that one.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Allurana » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:03 pm

mazarmormuk wrote:if you want to change that, you need to cut off highbies in general imo and maybe give them something else but pure strength. ... but thats highbies in general or in special guilds, not nessecarily clerics imo.


This is probably true. As I mentioned before, the things I see in Asrals/Sathos/Crusaders (and possibly other guilds) that seem to polarize the playerbase between "high power" and "low power" seem to be tweaks in response to highbie strength. To wit, Crusaders are probably strong because they had to try to stand up against a powerful lineup of Asral/Satho/Order characters back in the day, and in turn, guilds like Sathos/Asrals have since been retweaked to better stand up against a powerful lineup of "Luminier & friends". While guilds that don't really take center stage as much (Rangers, Shaos, Thieves, arguably Tanielites) seem to have been left behind in terms of power and influence.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:33 pm

mazarmormuk wrote:luminier, i m a bit disappointed about your comments..

<insert cold hard facts here>

excuse if i sound a bit rude, but i feel it as rude to "easily" explain bad rpg without knowing quite some facts (which f.e. count for mazar way different than for nathan or aslak)


Oh I've never played an old asral dwarf warcleric. But ive played all the clerics and I've fought against a lot of clerics.

If it were me, I would have fought Rex differently. Thats basically what I was trying to say in my post. Sorry to disappoint.


@Mogwai

Im literally just a dumb 24 year old dude IRL. I don't have the brain for political intrigue and cool stuff IG. Not to mention I feel like -real- subterfuge is really hard to pull off in this game. I respect the players that can do it with ease. But that isn't me!

playing lumi is so ingrained in me as the player at this point. If something happens in game I know whether or not it should dictate a response from Lumi. The whole Asral/arborea thing was such a small change by an elven judge so long ago, and now it's evolved into the asral way of life. Lumi's never liked it, but it's pretty cool to poLumi!

Also Lucifer and Phelan messing stuff up and attacking places and terrorizing kids and starting a fright, love that stuff OOC. If they didn't do all that I would be out of the job!

Anyways back to the topic....

Clerics should be interrupt-able and able to get crit/miss casts. And also skills need to be more specialized by the guild you are in.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aturshus » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:50 am

There is way too much stuff here for me to ever talk about all of it, so I'll cut to the actual topic of the thread. I think?

Miracle interruptions should be a thing, but not something to happen all the time. Each cleric guild (mages too?) should also get a miracle that disrupts another miracle (give us some crazy back and forth magic flinging, not this melee while casting something repeatedly!)

As a leather/cloth wearing melee Taniel cleric, one thing I can say for certain is, PREPARE TO DIE! A LOT! FOREVER! And then die when you're done with that.
In terms of advantages... Uh... Yep. Well you can dodge hits outright a lot easier than others. If you get hit you're toast naturally. You can't afford to try healing in a real fight, clotting if you time it just right maybe. Because if you are casting, you are a sitting duck, even more so if you're badly hurt and bleeding. The harden on robes is mostly useless because the way the wear slots work. The claymore is really the only redeeming quality of this playstyle. It is the weight roughly of a onehanded weapon, so you can deflect better with it. It does some magical damage, and you can do decent hits with it at good speed. That's all well and good except you still are dead if anything hits you.

Basically though, this is the only way you can play an elf-fighter-cleric. Otherwise prepared to be delegated to that character who just heals people.

Keep in mind my character is 220+ days although a lot of that can be accounted to RP, and he's still stronger in mentals.

On the subject of clerical skills, they probably need broken up into aspects as mentioned. I've been a cleric for all of... a month or two? Three? I'm pushing toward 70 with some of the stuff already.

In regards to monks, Glorfindel disarmed me and removed my harden with a single shao special during a spar, so I don't see the problem? Not really?

Clerics vs Clerics, a Taniel will almost certainly lose every time if the characters are about equal on experience. That's fine, there's a lot more because playing good is definitely more popular/easier.

I'm sure there's a lot of other stuff and whatnot, but I may as well hop in here since I've got a bit more insight into the cloth Taniel cleric (since I'm not popping a lowbie character to do it)

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:23 am

Mages can dispel, naturally enough, so cancelling effects exists already. Mages themselves can be messed with easily enough so I do not think that necessarily warrants a special miracle. But hey, if that leads to cleric vs. cleric disrupt battles it could be fun?

As a Taniel cleric just stick that ice skin on and no shao will want to come near you. Otherwise Taniel clerics are actually the only clerics shaos could fight against and win as they have only those clothes to wear. Those soft, priestly vestments really caress those delicate shao fists really good.
Last edited by Delia on Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby glorfindel » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:26 am

in response to poAturshus:

Simple:

a) yes, shao's have a tiny chance to break a _sustained_ miracle, yes. People who've been clerics their whole life, e. g. drayn, you can not hope to break the focus. And then, it does NOT interrupt the casting, only the sustained miracles. So, still no chance to interrupt all those smites, slays, hfire, bspear, fbolt, curse and whatnot. Also, I ever only seen it break breezes and harden. Never broke an iceskin or similar. Oh and yes, that is the ultimate shao killer as poDelia says.

b) You are wearing _paper_ as an armor. That means every hit a shao can do connects if the shao outclasses you by a lot. I'm still not sure why any Taniel cleric would wear that paper, though. Get yourself some acceptable armour (good leathers / mithril chain) and then come talk to us again.

c) _You are wearing paper as an armour_. I can not stress that enough. My char survives encounter with two handed swinging monstrosities because of a maxed out deflect and a lot of timing / quick reactions. That means getting that two hander swinging monster out of the way as soon as possible. There's also a reason why my char has as much leather as he can handle, because paper will get you killed even with very high deflect. Also, a fighter with no armor at all has it's own challenge. That means assessing your foe, switching mood, anticipating hits, guessing whether or not you need to get the enemy to the ground, etc. Also means, if there's someone with chain/plate in your team... you make sure they get hit and not you. In short, wearing thin/paper armour, esp. fighting with 'deflect' needs a lot of attention to the battle.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:07 am

@aturshus

Yea taniel clerics are suppose to be bad now. As I mentioned earlier (I notice you said you didn't read all of the topic, no problem) taniel's are basically suppose to be servants to the crusaders.

I also did express that it really muddles the identity of the Taniel clerics. Where a guild could once stand by itself it can no longer do so. I am not really bothered by that... they should be a bit weaker than other guilds because of all their natural allies...

I was talking with a friend and we came to the conclusion that Crusaders should disband, Evrenites start the evren clergy with the druids and tanielites join the taniel clergy as a warrior faction.

I -hated- the changes to the taniels, but, I was basically told to shut up and enjoy it. More nicely than that of course. :)

Glorfindel basically hit the nail on the head for why Shaos would trounce a cloth wearer Taniel cleric. Against a chain wearing Taniel or Asral or Satho, they stand no chance.



Also... Elves

Elves are almost as weak as halflings.... why do you think most elves with good combat skills become darkelves and then are suddenly really scary in PVP combat?

Elves just should never be front lines fighting. Thats why Elvandar guards are basically a joke... Why would you ever have elven guards? Her majesty's snipers are how Elvandar should -always- fight. You should never see an elf in front lines unless you've caught him with his pants down.

Asador, Arborea, all have archers at the gates. Elvandar? 3-4 elves that prowl around the forest and I've never once seen them useful in an actual elvandar raid. Easy to find and single out by enemies, much like the darkelves on the amward.... but even easier because it's an elf not a darkelf.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:57 am

thats maybe another topic, but yep, the city guards are more a joke.
i guess as mazar could maybe invade elvandar alone (without playerenemies), as could luminier do with arborea.

and i can only repeat, i ld love a prayer time on miracles you can interrupt as a minus in exchange for being not that much predictable. playing an effect where you know it will most propably show up and definately in exactly 16 seconds can be boring

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby ferranifer » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:15 am

mazarmormuk wrote:and i can only repeat, i ld love a prayer time on miracles you can interrupt as a minus in exchange for being not that much predictable. playing an effect where you know it will most propably show up and definately in exactly 16 seconds can be boring


That would kill the current "double miracle burst" strategy.. which might be a good thing after all, but keep that in mind.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:42 am

ferranifer wrote:
mazarmormuk wrote:and i can only repeat, i ld love a prayer time on miracles you can interrupt as a minus in exchange for being not that much predictable. playing an effect where you know it will most propably show up and definately in exactly 16 seconds can be boring


That would kill the current "double miracle burst" strategy.. which might be a good thing after all, but keep that in mind.


I think he meant possible crit effects on miracles, real crits that can kill instant.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:02 am

If there would be miracle/magic critical effects(some spells have, kind of)in a general all encompassing way, it would be more interesting to have a range of criticals with some interesting and unpredictable effects as well. Of course, I do not see why being mutilated magically could not kill you instantly. I am unsure what the mechanics could be like.
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