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Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

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Delia
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:17 am

Just for reference, I really like how interrupting mages work, as you do not necessarily have to deal a big critical in order to do so. Infact, damage is not even required. On the other hand you can manage a lucky cast even if you are hit hard during the process. It also matters greatly how you are casting.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:23 am

Also you have to keep in mind that some clerics basically "need" to be able to take damage and still be able to cast.

Imagine an Asral cleric that was interrupted as easily as a mage? (im not saying that is what you are suggesting Delia, just speculating) That cleric would essentially be forced to fight like someone in a melee guild, tank for his friends while they cast at the enemy, or shoot, what have you.

I only use Asral because I think it would definitely effect their guild the most. Taniel's are already suppose to be pretty supportive. And Sathonites have undead to cast from behind, no big hit there.

Is that what we want?
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby glorfindel » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:34 am

I don't think the interrupt-cycle of a mage is what you want for a cleric. I do see that cleric should have definite advantages here, as they are not the ones actively casting, they are mere conduits for the power of their deity.

I would suggest a minor interrupt-chance on specific occasions, but nowhere near / up to par with the mages in terms of their fail-rate. Not sure about numbers or anything specific, but it should be low but possible in my opinion.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:01 am

I was mentioning mages for comparison only...I do not want to see them being like priests either.

Are there cues if a priest is using gestures or voice only? I honestly cannot remember. It could have some tactical meaning like now hit his throat or hands if it was clearly visible like mages have it. Also fighting while using gestures should be more limited as even mages can do the basic fighter specials while casting. I think using specials while casting should have an opportunity cost. I know you do not perform at full capacity but a possibility for failure when casting/beseeching when gesturing and doing some other specific hand movements like trying to break limbs should not be far fetched.

Also messing with the gestures could/should mess with miracles as well. The window of opportunity to interrupt priest gestures should be way smaller than for mages though.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Mogwai » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:27 am

Luminier makes a valid point though, the chainmail is gone but their dueling potential against other clerics is outstanding with the cloth and sword. (activate protection from fire and you can do some crazy things)

The Taniel Clerics may only wear cloth but they get a quadruple harden on their armour(yes if you use all 4 pieces of the cloth you can buff them all with one harden), can easily increase various stats with a few simple blessings, have an incredibly powerful 2 hander(it's offensive ratings are unbelievable), can heal themselves on demand.

The sword hits harder/on par than a lot of artifact weapons(sorry wrathbringer I'm looking at you). It easily outshines the thurse sword in both weight and damage. (the one issue is it can't be used in pursuit well but you can charge it up and enter a room split an ogre skull with a 20 day old character)

If you could use it without wearing cloth armour you could in theory have mithril armour, an incredible weapon(I'm serious it's offensive power is amazing), an on demand heal, the ability to support your teammates.

The downside is that if you want to have it all you are seriously exposed to melee combat but all of that is alleviated by a teammate.

Essentially if you prepare for battle you can have a huge agility buff, a two hander that is both extremely light and powerful (it's pretty incredible offensively), cloth armour that uses almost no weight (perfect deflection) but yes even a few ogre hits may be very rough.

Still, if you want to go on the offensive optimally you have to form an inquisition of cleric and crusader. When the skillsets are used in conjunction the power. (RP Wise it makes sense)

It's definitely a glass cannon set up for the clerics willing to take risks to deliver fight ending hits or if they want to play safe with miracles that is an option to. (In contrast the original Taniel Cleric which was miracle spam-waterlance, smite)

I think when the re-work was done there was too much of the All-In-One Cleric for a clergy that has 2 other guilds to work in conjunction with.

That or you can't just walk in and tank everything, you have to be selective with your fights and have an understanding of what your opponent is to make the taniel cleric shine (They added a miracle to let you seen into other rooms so you can do a high risk high reward home run hitter strategy with the 2h sword miracle)

I reiterate, the kit is not meant to synergize all together, it's meant to give you a choice between amazing striking power or focus on the support of your teammates as a tanky cleric healer/miracle barrage. This is akin to the death priests having a slay living miracle that not all clerics use but can be done to add a distinctive playstyle.

Now alas my cleric was kicked out (wasn't supposed to be there with the guild join function--no sour grapes here) and you never got to see what could be done with it :wink:

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:25 am

Mogwai wrote:Luminier makes a valid point though, the chainmail is gone but their dueling potential against other clerics is outstanding with the cloth and sword. (activate protection from fire and you can do some crazy things)

..... and you never got to see what could be done with it :wink:




Hah I think you kind of misunderstood me. If anything their ability to fight against other clerics has gone down. Protection from fire does not mean immunity to fire. In fact Sathos and Asrals have better fire protection than Taniels with both resist fire and fire armour.


As I recall the offensive rating of the claymore is on par with a ritual satho spear or a fauchard of flames. Nothing really too insane. And while cloth can be hardened to emulate leather, it’s still cloth with all the disadvantages of cloth. That means that it is vulnerable to criticals from specials more so than -actual- leather would be. Basically a net loss. As I said before, you might as well -not- use the quad harden and just use leather with the single harden because it is more protective and better resistance to criticals from specials


What artifact weapons are you using?! Every artifact weapon I have used it head and shoulders above the claymore sword, and that includes the wrathbringer. I would say it is roughly on par with the thurse sword and it isn’t actually that much lighter. Remember that weight actually -helps- to a point. You want enough weight that your sword can hit hard, but not too heavy that you can swing more than once a week.


I think the splitting of the ogre skull is a bit dramatic. Maybe if you were a 20 day old tshahark you could. But a 20 day old anything else can -not- split ogre skull with the claymore.


I think the claymore makes sense to be able to use in any type of armour. I really dislike that Taniel for whatever reason -wouldn’t- grant his followers a helpful miracle because of the type of armour they were wearing… it’s kind of weird. Any coded block like that is weird. Either make it fully available or just remove it.


I don’t understand why you said their dueling ability against clerics is amazing, yet you say they are seriously exposed in melee combat. Isn’t that a contradiction? If I was an Asral or Satho against a Taniel cleric, it is much easier to just disarm them with a slam or gore (remember cloth sucks against this as the harden doesn’t make it protect from specials) and make them have no more claymore. I’ve tested it in spars and I can reliably disarm them almost 80%-90% of the time. I basically just have to aim at their hands. Ogre hits are more than “rough” in cloth, Ogres can break your arms and neck with one handed swings!


Glass cannon taniel clerics do not work. I’ve personally tried it and seen other try it. The damage they do is not comparable to someone in chainmail who focuses purely on combats and uses chainmail. And the chainmail user is more tanky. I do agree with you that Taniel clerics combined with Crusaders are a force! But while the options you describe are indeed options, one is viable, the other is most certainly not. Or at least I have no seen the claymore used to great effect yet. Maybe if someone made a human/dwarf that focused only on combats and used cloth, but again, if you are going to do that… you might as well just wear chainmail and use a thurse sword.


The spy miracle was not added -for- the new update, it existed before.


I would say that no Satho cleric uses slay anymore because it isn’t strong as it used to be. And the ability of sathos to ritual their spears is far superior to that kind of playstyle anyways, as there is no risk to getting hit by an ice-skin prepared cleric.


I realize it seems like I am jumping down your throat, but I have done quite a bit of looking into and testing of the changes to the Taniel clerics since Glasp and Per. Simply put, you explain the ideal scenario that they imagined and it simply does not work in the current PVE or PVP meta of the game.

Again, maybe if tshaharks could join Taniel clerics it would work -better- but it would still suffer from the same faults as it does now. I hope that clears up some misconceptions.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:41 am

At least concerning Taniel clerics, you seems to forget that they have 3 allied guilds. Since Geas does balance by numbers, none of these guilds should be on par with those guilds who stand alone.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:16 pm

I agree that Taniel clerics should be weaker than the other clergies. But their combat should at the very least make sense and be viable. They shouldnt just be coded to be bad.

Also they are not always allied with other guilds. Also while Sathonys are alone, they have undead to back them up. Asrals chose to be a third voice which makes them alone by choice, not by necessity.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:37 pm

luminier wrote:I agree that Taniel clerics should be weaker than the other clergies. But their combat should at the very least make sense and be viable. They shouldnt just be coded to be bad.

True, but guess it should be part of another thread or internal discussion for the Taniels.

luminier wrote:Asrals chose to be a third voice which makes them alone by choice, not by necessity.

That is only half the truth. They are coded to be apart from the Taniels and Sathos, the whole gamelore is written so that they ain't on the same side as the other two.
They are made a third voice by design as much as by choice. For example, Asrals could never work together with the crusade with the current codex of Asral. And crusaders will have their trouble to work with Asrals as well I assume.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:41 pm

do we still dicuss a general OP of the clerical system?

does that count for taniel clerics, too?

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:57 pm

Im all for making the Taniel's weaker too, I've already stated reasons I think they are too OP in my original post. Ice skin and cure wounds on a melee character are fantastically amazing.

As for Asrals being a third voice, I must be stuck in the past where I remember Asrals being able to team with anyone they wanted, Satho, Taniel, Crusader, Ranger, hell even Druid! Not so long ago Asrals teamed with the Order. Does the codex of Asral actually forbid you from teaming with Crusaders? I don't actually know the specifics of the Codex of Asral, maybe I should have a peek at it.

Crusaders used to work with some Asralites so it isn't impossible. But Luminier isn't going to team with any current Asralite anytime soon because of the RP that goes on.

Unless your codex explicitly forbids you to team with anyone, to say that you have no allies compared to the other guilds is not correct IMO. I can think of characters right now that would be willing to ally with the Asrals and help them. And again if you really needed help, I am sure the Taniel clergy would help you. If anything it is the Asralite pride and perhaps Arborean xenophobia that stops them from asking for help.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:34 pm

There is a HUGE difference being able to once team with another people and being allied to them by code and gamelore.
And yes, the crusade breaks every important part of the Asral codex, as much as the deathpriests do.
Beside, Asrals are set apart by code from Taniels so far that they barely do not acount as default enemy for them.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby luminier » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:47 pm

We are only allied because working together benefits us.

We used to be two separate guilds that could work independently, and I would prefer if we were again.

Having the taniel clerics rely on the Crusaders muddles the identity of the Taniel Clerics and basically makes them an accessory guild. Maybe the guilds should just be combined.

There have been times where Crusaders and Taniels do not work together because they do not agree. It only seems like they agree lots because of the current leadership.

You could make the argument that while you can't team with Sathonys or Crusaders you could team with Taniel's Rangers Shaolin Rogues? Order if you wanted to. Doesn't sound very limited.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:52 pm

parts of the codex concerning that matter:

| /\ Our collaboration will end immediately if our
| \/ allies violate the Holy Codex of Asral.
:
:
| /\ -The Holy Codex of Asral-
| \/ We will not torture or loot our foes.
| /\
| \/ We will not mutilate the corpses of our foes
:
| /\ Honorable enemies will never be humiliated.
:
--------------------------------------------------

That does not exclude everyone, but definately the crusade, sathonites, rogues and a huge part of elvandarians.

The rest is solved by our soul alignment.

There are theoretical chances for an alliance left, but in fact neutrality in this game is an edge between two extreme sides -without complaining- placed into a stand-alone status with two fronts.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby mazarmormuk » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:01 pm

...forgot that one:

"We will fight proudly until death and beyond to defend our freedom against fanatics that try to take control over our mind, body and soul or law and land."

we are playing that extremely moderate imo. if we really followed the codex by all senses, we would not be a stand-alone guild but a guild in a constant two-sided war against crusaders, taniels, rangers (as allies and elvandar defenders), the order and sathonites.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Mogwai » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:12 pm

Let me apply some data gathered here and offer a more thoughts based off of facts and observations.

I concede that it is not without it's flaws but I do peruse the issue of it's offensive capabilities and why it stands out in it's own way.

1. You make some good points about this but I find that there are a lot of differences between our observations of it.

Pros:
-You have jedi like hitting ability.
-Claymore allows for a strong deflection ratio. Thurse Sword does not. This weapon allows you to synergize well with it.
-Wrathbringer's output simpy is not as much, tested on a variety of targets and the claymore won out

Cons:
-One doesn't need cast time for the wrathbringer, one can also unwield it and chase then wield again.
-Being a two handed weapon it does not travel well like the original 1handed light blade version.

2.
-Claymore is significantly lighter than the thurse sword. Tested it multiple times and it's proven significantly lighter every time.
-In the combat system there is a power per weight ratio that makes a weapon more effective and potentially outstanding. One could call it a power per mass ratio.
-The claymore is light and has exceptional attack power which means it can attacks/time while heaving fight ending hits.
-This synergizes with the near weightlessness of the cloth allowing for even greater attack speed.

weakness:
same as 1.

Essentially:
-Again this playstyle means you can be killed easily :twisted: but you have good opportunities to do the same.

3.
Remember that weight actually -helps- to a point. You want enough weight that your sword can hit hard, but not too heavy that you can swing more than once a week.


-your statement is too broad does not apply to miracle based weapons or artifacts.
-Every single sword artifact is longer and lighter than any mithril version of similiar make yet hits much much harder than a mithril sword.
-Mithril weapons are light but artifacts are lighter have better striking potential. (the heavier the weapon the worse off it is in the grand scheme of things)
-Artifacts and miracle weapons do not follow the same power to mass ratios.
-Weight does not make a weapon more valuable this statement is really flawed--especially in miracle based weapons or artifacts.

I could concede that it is offensively not an option for pursuit but it a weapon that deserves a lot of respect and definitely outshines the flame fauchard by a significant margin.

4.
Pros:
My point is at 20 day tshaharks could do better than what an 120 day tshahark could not do indicating the under utilized potential. (if you have better striking power than mogwai you have the potential to ohk quite a few clerics-Even if it was simply on par with some would say it would be sufficient-see polls)

Cons:
-the activation time and 0 pursuit potential are somewhat limiting

5.
Glass cannon taniel clerics do not work. I’ve personally tried it and seen other try it. The damage they do is not comparable to someone in chainmail who focuses purely on combats and uses chainmail.


First of all lets evaluate your statement.

-When does chainmail increase damage output? :?:

-chainmail is an opportunity cost, what do you give up to keep it? offensive potency.

-I'm sure overall dps of an extended fight would favor a chainmail cleric but you have the potential to end fights as a cleric in 1 shot.

6.
I don’t understand why you said their dueling ability against clerics is amazing, yet you say they are seriously exposed in melee combat. Isn’t that a contradiction? If I was an Asral or Satho against a Taniel cleric, it is much easier to just disarm them with a slam or gore (remember cloth sucks against this as the harden doesn’t make it protect from specials) and make them have no more claymore.


Again more risk versus reward

-Are you really worried about a clerics melee abilities?

-exposure to melee combat to be key in a dueling situation against miracle based opponents doesn't strike me as logical. It's simply not their forte.

-people lighten it up with mithril armors but why should one armor would shine in all situations above the rest?

-the disarming affects everyone, I haven't seen people stop using artifacts or miracle weapons just because there is a chance to get disarmed.

-if they want to gore or slam they cannot be casting miracles
-"you have a chance to disarm me? I have the opportunity to end you."
-"I gore you in the head and knock you out before I cut your head off"

I really think that this playstyle isn't for everyone. People who cannot understand the philosophy the best defense is a good offense are not able to go with it and if only 1 player out of dozens could make it shine perhaps there is an issue with it.

An extremely high risk high reward style isn't for everyone especially people used to the safety of armours.

Thoughts and conclusions:

-While it's powerful it isn't versatile
-It's not good for fighting NPC's I grant that completely, but when your life and death depends on a successful hit to destroy an enemy cleric/fighter it is well-endowed for it's job.
-It's situationally very powerful and potentially downright outstanding.
-It's a tool that can be applied but you have to invest in less defense to use it.
-the cast times for it are too long
-running around with it quickly drains you making only a situation based tactic

Perhaps the (optional) playstyle is too difficult for 95% of the players. It's entirely possible that the scaling a degree of efficiency to make it worthwhile is too limited for many of the clerics.

I mean why have a skill that most people can't figure out how to apply effectively.

Your argument might also apply to: Slay Living because all sathonites only fight taniel clerics who always have iceskin and only them.

luminier wrote:
Glass cannon taniel clerics do not work. I’ve personally tried it and seen other try it.


If only I could pull it off and not even Polumi could make it work perhaps it does it would benefit from some changes for more of the Taniel clergy but there is a caveat -
0-If they're going to have a potentially fight ending miracle sword and should it be a potentially fight ending miracle sword?
-Are the limitations on it (0 potential pursuit/cast time) too significant of trade offs?
-Is armor the issue here? if it is then they simply could use their old guild armors and not have the light claymore entirely since it brings nothing to their kit.

On the note of the guild alliances:

Taniel and Evren are literally the only 2 gods that work hand in hand together.

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Aslak » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:42 pm

As tested with our last fight, I have to agree that casting clerics are far too powerfull. Two bolts brought you to not in a good shape and a head crit killed me, the unicorn taking away pretty much the ability the parry with its many attacks ^^

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby ghalt » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:01 pm

As far as politics--I couldn't really help aslak in that fight as it'd have pissed off not just you but I figure every taniel and ranger and druid as well even, because unicorn. "Don't help this guy or you might be banned from a city" is a pretty big shield for you and I really do think you have a political advantage there. ^^

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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby Delia » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:03 pm

Well, characters like Luminier cannot be mentioned when discussing game balance, IMHO ;) And that weapon he wielded, too.
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Re: Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

Postby ghalt » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:06 pm

Actually--as far as the politics goes, I'd say Asrals can team with lots of folk, but those folk aren't going to necessarily have their back in a war. Troll killing? Kyir? Closing the insect portal, absolutely. Going toe to toe with the crusade? ehhhhhh.


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