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luminier
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Extremely alert?

Postby luminier » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:44 pm

Anyone else extremely alert -all the time- now? The only thing I lose is my stamina.

The only thing that makes me lose fatigue is poison or walking too fast. Fighting doesn't make me lose fatigue at all.

Is it suppose to be like that now? Thanks!
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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby ferranifer » Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:01 am

Fatigue drain from normal combat was reduced some time ago (and newbies got a grace period of reduced costs on top of that too I believe).

I consistently lose both stamina and fatigue during combat whenever I use specials, specially weapon specials (shao specials are cheaper). Also, running is as costly as it always was, which I guess you don't notice because of unicorns.

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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby Aturshus » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:38 am

Extremely alert all the time unless running very fast. Never changes in combat, ever. Even without a breeze obviously. I think since the change certain builds can get away with never losing it while fighting but that's probably not meant to be the case.

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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby luminier » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:32 pm

ferranifer wrote:Fatigue drain from normal combat was reduced some time ago (and newbies got a grace period of reduced costs on top of that too I believe).

I consistently lose both stamina and fatigue during combat whenever I use specials, specially weapon specials (shao specials are cheaper). Also, running is as costly as it always was, which I guess you don't notice because of unicorns.


Strange, I don't have the same experience losing fatigue... not even with newbie alts that I tested the fatigue with. Perhaps it's only once the "newbie period" is over then?
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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby ferranifer » Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:05 pm

I noticed that my combat fatigue loss was due to spellcasting and not the actual combat turns.

The fatigue change:
viewtopic.php?p=28275#p28275

From that thread, my tuning suggestion was:
"Also consider removing the fatigue cost of combat specials altogether and switch to using breath instead, with fatigue being used exclusively for walking/ mining/ non-combat activities. Recovering breath between fights takes 20 seconds tops and it would accomplish the goal of balancing combat special spam and add a sense of rhythm to combat/resting."

I am happy with fatigue not being a factor for "normal-pace" combat. IMHO stamina handles that pretty well without being as crippling as fatigue. But opinions do vary.

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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby luminier » Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:03 pm

I agree how Stamina handles it better than fatigue did.

Maybe it's just my own brain but I feel like fatigue should be changed to follow suit somehow. Being extremely alert all the time is kind of weird.
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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby ferranifer » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:12 am

Well, there are strenuous activities in the game that do use fatigue. Just some examples: mining, climbing, running fast or breaking things. They are just not combat related activities, which I think was the point of the change. At least it was the point of my suggestion:
- bursts of activity = stamina = combat special pacing mechanism
- tiresome physical or mental effort = fatigue = long term pacing mechanism

Also, even though fatigue doesn't seem to be drained by combat anymore, it still has an effect on it. If you get into a fight while tired for other reasons, you will be in trouble.

What do you think needs to happen to make fatigue "follow suit"?

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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby Arsicas » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:35 am

Apparently running around a forest shooting and skinning deer fatigues you. At least doing so at a fairly rapid pace.
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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby glorfindel » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:34 am

only way of loosing fatigue I am currently aware of is running around with a lot of encumbrance OR wielding a weapon while running. Other then that, fatigue does not move for me.

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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby Olrane » Fri May 01, 2015 5:01 am

This change is a drastic difference from what I remember. Newbie downtime is practically zero as long as you don't run through stamina during a fight.

RIP 'Four Seasons'. No need for young warriors to find a skald now, haha.

I do like the distinction as Ferra pointed out. Are there more things like mining/should there be? Miners are universally either high CON or have INT and music to make up for it.

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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby Abharsair » Fri May 01, 2015 2:35 pm

We will look into whether the formulas need adjustment.
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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby Olrane » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:28 pm

I feel like stamina drain in combat should always be "active" and tied to specials use. All of the passive stamina drain for just sustaining combat could be shifted to fatigue. It would feel better, that's for sure...

On top of that, I do think that specials should definitely dip a bit deeper into the fatigue pool on the whole. Stamina should be more a "whoa, slow down" while fatigue should emulate a maximum duration of your character's effective fighting time.

I'm not looking for a buff at all, mind, I'm just saying how I think it would best mirror expectations.

At current you can be "completely out of breath" and still sustain combat at "extremely alert".

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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby mazarmormuk » Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:25 pm

yeah, agreed..as a sidenote, i never seen stamina raising significantly in mid combat when you notice and slow down then.
i guess it ld be cool if stamina would be attached to the specials and if it ld also rise again if you stop using specials for a time.

btw, maz gets out of breath quite easily in a simple battle but can run fullspeed from arborea to elvandar.
maybe a stamina for mounts and runners would reduce the quick homeruns-heals-and backs

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Re: Extremely alert?

Postby ferranifer » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:34 am

The way I see it, again:

mining, walking while carrying weight, chopping trees, climbing - fatigue
combat specials, bursty stuff - stamina

The main issue was that newbies would run out of BOTH stamina and fatigue so quick that they never even managed to finish a kobold before having to flee. Keep in mind that newbies don't hit and their fights are already quite long as it is. Any mechanism that forces you to "time out" is inherently anti-fun and should be handled with care, specially at the low levels.

I personally like the way it stands right now, but I can see how fatigue has become kind of a no-factor if you're a big char or come back from the mentality that fatigue controlled everything and stamina controlled specials on top of it. And yes, stamina regen during combat would be nice. Just think on the newbies.

I still have to manage my fatigue with my main, due to some peculiarities of the spellcasting system. Stamina is a no factor for him though. I find it quite odd that stamina is used both for combat special control and running/weight control. Maybe that's what should be addressed. Clearly define them and separate them. And then fix fatigue use for running properly. And fix horses so they use fatigue as well, those horse-teleport scripts are rather silly.


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