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Players in control of cities.

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Alastar
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Players in control of cities.

Postby Alastar » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:20 am

Hello!

So I've been playing this game under different names for a bit and I've noticed a theme that's coming up a lot over the time I've been here. Players being forced out of cities or otherwise bullied by irresponsible characters who've somehow managed to make it into positions of power, leaving the other character completely defenseless and at the mercy of someone else who potentially doesn't give one care in the world for if the person WANTS to be bullied or thrown out of the place where their role play is happening.

What are you all's thoughts on this? I personally think there should be a change to cities, in how they work with their law systems. Mostly, players shouldn't get in these places of power. A coded system of justice would fix this certain issue, no more players able to force whatever they want on other players.

Sure there are responsible players who know how to role play with this kind of power who DON'T use it ridiculously harshly, but it only takes one irresponsible one to ruin someone elses game.

Aturshus
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby Aturshus » Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:46 pm

Sorry, but complaining about law enforcement through OOC means on an alt account is not a proper way to deal with a situation, calling other players irresponsible because you don't like the way things are is childish, and the situation at hand will certainly not ruin your game in any way.

Player based politics is a huge draw to the game for a large amount of players, asking for the feature to be removed is like somebody asking for pvp to be removed because they keep getting killed.

ghalt
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby ghalt » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:01 pm

Take care of yourself first if you're being targeted.
Remember that you don't owe anyone any roleplay and you certainly don't owe them a victim to kick so they feel all good about themselves? If someone's giving you unfair grief, talk to the wizards. If that doesn't work, consider if you have something better to do with your time--some players will back off the instant you say you're not having fun? Others will never, ever voluntary limit the damage that they cause others. Also just--if you're taking too much grief, rely upon your assessment of that situation and not another's. You know what you're going through.

Alastar
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby Alastar » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:50 pm

Aturshus wrote:Sorry, but complaining about law enforcement through OOC means on an alt account is not a proper way to deal with a situation, calling other players irresponsible because you don't like the way things are is childish, and the situation at hand will certainly not ruin your game in any way.

Player based politics is a huge draw to the game for a large amount of players, asking for the feature to be removed is like somebody asking for pvp to be removed because they keep getting killed.



Of course, my own situation is not the one I'm referring to actually, as it means nothing in the long run, I'm sorry you jumped to that conclusion, but it did remind me of the other situations forced onto other players that did in fact make them quit. Rather unfair situations to the players that meant a great loss to the game, through players who were irresponsible with whatever powers they had and used them to harm another player's experience so severely they didn't want to play anymore.

Player based politics is a huge draw to the game, player based bullying is a big detriment to the game that pushes players away. Saying to remove a highly abused feature because people enjoy abusing it doesn't make it alright.

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Arsicas
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby Arsicas » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:12 pm

Getting kicked out of cities can be harsh, particularly because some features and guilds are limited to certain cities. Some of the guilds/characters that are in charge of the law systems though have pretty strict standards roleplay-wise. Tanielites in particular have played pretty black and white. I think there should definitely be a way to get back into the good graces of the city by paying a fine or whatnot for certain crimes. Obviously, being a murdering, cannibalizing Sathonite is not something Elvandar is likely to forgive... unless you repent, I suppose. But things like theft or insulting the clergy or whatnot are things that should be able to be made amends for.

More tricky is when there are hostilities between guilds, like Crusaders and Asralites, since that can involve restricting a whole guild from a city. It would probably be best to restrict only those who break the law, but of course guild members are going to come to their guildmates' defense, so it often involves the whole guild anyway. I do think the political struggles add to the game. But those in charge should also be responsible and understand how their actions affect other players. Be sure that the punishment fits the crime, and give characters the chance to atone for it.
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You speak softly in Common: Sometimes it's all that keeps one
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You smile slightly.

Alastar
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby Alastar » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:09 pm

I agree with Arsicas' points.

The ability to zone in on someone and mercilessly force your will on them shouldn't be a part of the game. Politics can run freely without people getting stepped on and forced to either quit or play their character the way someone else wants or submit to the other ridiculously powerful side. Because there's a difference between politics and bullying.

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Arsicas
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby Arsicas » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:10 pm

Kind of curious what you've perceived as bullying. Probably don't want to call out particular situations or characters, but I'm curious whether it's just an overzealous character or a player who's abusing their power. You obviously should be free to play your character how they should be played, not how it fits into another person's perspective. Is it IC conflict though? Or are people thinking that's not how X type of character should be roleplayed? Or do they just not like X type of character? If the conflict is IC, then that's something that should be worked out IC. But both sides should remember not to let it flow over to OOC.
Duncan hisses in Common: love not keepzss zssomeone alive
You speak softly in Common: Sometimes it's all that keeps one
alive.
You smile slightly.

Aturshus
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby Aturshus » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:12 pm

As I said it's inappropriate to handle it OOC. The character in question is mine and it is of course IC law being discussed. Furthermore it is not something that could -possibly- ruin somebody's game.

Edit: I missed a few posts somehow. Yes there have been cases of OOC abuse, and yes it's no fun for the victim. Those should be taken to a wizard to have them look at the situation, trying to remove the mechanic because of it is once again like asking for pvp to be removed because a player is abusing it.

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lili
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby lili » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:41 pm

I have never been in a situation when it comes to the laws of the different cities that i couldn't sit down at Roleplay through. Not everyone is like that though. As my old char Lili i have been fined for just about everything on the law list expect murder and anything to do with theives and deathpriest because situations have come up in my roleplay that i've just done what i thought my wild half-elf would do. Like chasing Skragna around Elvandar shooting at him, which was very fun for me. Was i trying to really kill him? No. Did i think i had a chance at actually hitting him, well maybe 10% chance but never did i think his char would ever die from it and he didn't. It was a fun rp and it cost my Lili a bit of coin in fines because of her 'temper'. The different cities have different layers of laws, some cities are more easy breezy. I've been around long enough to see cities like Arborea go from happy-go-lucky to crazy strict back to happy go lucky and then what it is today. The reason for that is because it is player ran. I love that. it adds something to the game called Roleplay.

It's player ran. There are no rules against you helping run it. That's why it's player ran so that players decide. I'd hate it if it was taken away. You can do anything you like in Roleplay, you just have to be creative and find your groove. JusIt remember that not everything is always as it seems and there are consequences both good and bad to just about every situation. If I don't like something I try to find a way to change it in the game through roleplay. If its petty, well i just shrug it off and move on.

I haven't seen any bulling going on myself, there isn't anyone out there who is just out to get a certain person becasue of who they are. The mud itself has grown a lot over the last few years and we have a more mature playerbase for the most part. I see a lot of consequences for actions and people sometimes don't like that. If i go out and let/make my char break the law, i know as a person that my char has broken the law and someone might find out, small law or big law, i know it can come back on my char. I'm the one that decides if its worth it.
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Aslak
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby Aslak » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:27 pm

Actually, cities are sadly not player run, but guild run.
The only city that is not directly linked to one of the major faiths is the dwarven underground...and this city sadly offers not a single service/guild.

Second, getting outlawed also prevents you from changing the leadership of a city, which makes you a double victim. Taking a city by force actually does not work either, as there is no code for "forcing" a judge out of office with a blade on his throat.

I would very much like to see some possibility "take over" a city, either by replacing the judge or by capturing it. Sadly both is currently completely impossible in all major cities but Underground.

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lili
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby lili » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:44 pm

They are only really guild ran because we've made them that way for the most part. It isn't against code to run for office in Arborea,, for example, if you aren't an asral high cleric. Players made that law. At least that's how i understood it. As far as I know, any citizen can still run and win and if they win they can change the law. Roleplay is just Roleplay. If you go out and murder someone and get outlawed, well handle it icly. There are a billion and one things you can do, You can bribe someone, you can sit and sulk, You can declare war, a one man war or get some followers, you can slaughter the guilty, slaughter the innocent, You can pad the pocket of someone willing to run and win judge to remove you from the outlaw list. idk.
I feel like good things about the game get changed for the worst 70% of the time over small issues made large while the game suffers from a lack of things to do, lack of new areas and fun rp campaigns , but that's just me and its off topic

I would also very much like to see something like 'Take over' i think it'd be fun if it was done right.
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luminier
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby luminier » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:28 am

I swear these exact same issues come up every few months.

ghalt wrote:Take care of yourself first if you're being targeted.
Remember that you don't owe anyone any roleplay and you certainly don't owe them a victim to kick so they feel all good about themselves? If someone's giving you unfair grief, talk to the wizards. If that doesn't work, consider if you have something better to do with your time--some players will back off the instant you say you're not having fun? Others will never, ever voluntary limit the damage that they cause others. Also just--if you're taking too much grief, rely upon your assessment of that situation and not another's. You know what you're going through.


I feel like Ghalt hit the nail on the head.

I also feel the need to reiterate that we're playing together not against each other. Have fun with one another! You can be enemies in the game and still have fun IC. I encourage talking to one another OOC to make a good story for everyone to follow.

Aturshus, I really think it's unfair to label Alastars thread as a simple complaint. Perhaps it is just text and I didn't understand your tone properly, but, you post did come off quite a bit derogatory and even patronizing. However, I do agree with you it is unlikely that this aspect of the game is unlikely to be changed. Perhaps if you feel as if you are at fault (for whatever reason), talk to the people that your roleplay may be affecting OOCly and try to see where they are going, where you want to go etc. It may help everyone make a better story in the long run. The other path is that people get fed up and quit, which i don't think you want.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Aturshus
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby Aturshus » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:40 am

The thread showed up minutes after a confrontation between my character and one of his, which was in fact very minor. To me the thread seems like a petty complaint at best.

Wade
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Re: Players in control of cities.

Postby Wade » Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:58 am

ghalt wrote: If someone's giving you unfair grief, talk to the wizards. If that doesn't work, consider if you have something better to do with your time--some players will back off the instant you say you're not having fun? Others will never, ever voluntary limit the damage that they cause others. Also just--if you're taking too much grief, rely upon your assessment of that situation and not another's. You know what you're going through.


As far as the OOC issues others came up with and the reason this bothered me enough to bring up this issue again is the fact that there was a very recent disagreement between me and a couple other players that ended with a wizard telling us all to leave each other alone, which i was quite fine with and enjoying playing the game with the rest of the players with minimal contact between me and the others I disagreed with. I've continued to play my character in the way she's always been, a style that barely makes a mark on the other players who i disagreed with's game at all, entirely minimalistic that doesn't impede their game... at all.

Suddenly being tagged for something that was never an issue before this ooc disagreement, and so recently after that issue and after we were all told to leave eachother alone severely bothers me and like i said, i'd prefer the continued 'leave eachother alone' deal. I was having fun and not harming the playstyle of anyone else at all.

And as to mature players and things handled ICly and with roleplay, after a couple players changed the way their characters (alts and all, across the board) treated my main for something one alt did and an ooc problem, to provide an extremely negative experience for me if we did come into contact, I must disagree with those statements.

And to the actual topic, the ability for someone to beat down on a single character in the method of changing the game laws, ridiculous fines, and otherwise a severely negative experience, is not good for the game. and it's not fun at all, it drives people away from the game.


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