Specials

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stilgar
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Specials

#1 Post by stilgar » Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:20 am

Greets!

I was wandering about a thing. Asyou all know I play a shao. They have a lot of specials, they train their body to kill and have secret techiques to be effective...

... YET.. "knee" and "elbow" and "headbutt" seems to :

1. do more damage
2. crit more

then shao specials at the same level (my experience, might differ from others). Is there any special reason why code supports it like that?
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tarlon
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#2 Post by tarlon » Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:53 am

I don´t know alot about a the shao specials. So i can´t tell alot about them. Some seems to work well like battle scream. But i noticed that is nearly impossible for me to hit with a kick but easy to hit with elbow knee or headbutt. I only hit with kick if the enemy is paralyzed berserked or uncon and knocking someone on the ground with it seems to be fairly impossible for me but my skill is in kick is way higher.
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tessa
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#3 Post by tessa » Fri Nov 25, 2005 4:14 am

Knee, elbow, and headbutt are categorized as combat skills, not martial art skills, so there's going to be a difference in how they work.

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#4 Post by Abharsair » Fri Nov 25, 2005 5:54 am

"Kick" can be compared to a Karate or kickboxing kick. And I'd like to see someone do it while wearing any kind of heavy armour. Therefore anyone wearing those kind of armours will suck if he tries to pull off a Bruce Lee.

Contrary to "kick" or the fancier somersault, supersomersault, supermegasomersault and god knows what else there is, "knee" or "elbow" are melee attacks which don't require the ability to lift you leg above your ear, and just rely on brute force and the kinetic energy of your knee or elbow.

Last but not least, it's a game-balance issue. "Knee" and "elbow" are specials for warriors with armours. They can't do Shaolin specials. Shaolin can do the fighter specials, though.
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#5 Post by tarlon » Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:07 am

Ah okay. I rembering kick working very well in the past even with armours seems it changed alot. I always thought kick is just a brtual kick no real martial arts.
po Tarlon

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#6 Post by tessa » Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:27 pm

They should hit harder anyway. Moves like elbow and knee rely more on raw force, whereas martial arts rely more on speed and accuracy than power.

To Stilgar - It probably just is your experience. Tessa was using backhand chop to break bones since it was at a skill of 8, and she has yet to break a bone with 40+ elbow/knee.

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#7 Post by stilgar » Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:13 am

My lowest MA skill is in the low 50's while elbow is around 65-66 :wink:

So.. I do not think there should be such a difference.. I cannot remember too much time I crit with MA moves (very rarely against goblins), while usually crit with elbow (against ogres and trolls).

Stilgar is more about speed than strength.. so if elbow is more about brute force.. and MA is more about speed and accuracy.. Stilgar should crit like crazy with MA specs..

Of course, I know about the game balance issue.. yet.. it seems a bit strange :evil:
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#8 Post by stilgar » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:56 am

Now.. I think I can compare:

skill elbow 66, skill sidekick 70 skill knee 19

I crit on almost 4th elbow (neck crits). I crit on averagely each 8th knee.. and about each 10th sidekick.

So.. what I tried to poit out.. what is the use of martial arts if normal combat specials do more damage and crit often? No to mention their use agains armoured opponents. Of course, these are just thoughts :wink:
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#9 Post by Jegga » Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:57 am

I'd exhange my bodycheck for your shockpoke anyday.

In the end it's all about personal fighting style and liking. There's a lot of different options available to you. Just pick whatever fighting style you like and get the most out of it. All of them have advantages and disadvantages, so just pick some :)

In defence of the power of elbow compared with chop for example... well, you have to wear quite a lof of armour for elbow to be effective. If wearing armour is not an option to you, then elbow is not an option for you. You can do pretty unique effects with martial specials that are simply not available with combat specials, while you can do all the effects of combat specials (or equivalent effects) with martial specials _and_ noone forces you not to use a weapon.

Effects from combat specials:
* throw to the ground
* disarm
* numb
* slow
* blind
* steal weapon
* cripple
* break
* chop off limb
* behead/cut throat/break neck
* knock uncon
* agi self-buf

Effects from martial arts specials:
* throw to the ground
* disarm
* numb
* slow
* blind
* cripple
* break
* break neck
* knock uncon
* negate attack + throw to the ground/steal weapon
* disorient/negate further specials
* disarm + throw to the ground + bleed + fear
* lots of self-buffs
* armour resonance
* throw + blind to 2nd (and 3rd?) row without ammo or wield

Noone can complain that Geas' combat system is simple at all. Just mix & match.

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#10 Post by lirynel » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:52 pm

You can keep the shockpoke. Even with only leather armour I'd take bodycheck any day. I'm also just as happy with slam as I ever was with the Shao specials and my skill level in slam is much much lower.

On the whole I'd agree with Stilgar, the Shaolin skills don't crit as often as fighter skills of similar skill level and they don't seem to do as much damage, but if you use the entire range of them I'd say you can probably hit your opponent, or at least try to, more frequently than using the fighter specials.

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#11 Post by stilgar » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:08 pm

To Jegga:

If you ever PvP-d (hehe) then you know what I mean. Yegerfin, with ALL his skills and abilities will NEVER be a match without weapons, to ANY armoured warrirors at master level. Why??

Simple: cannot deal enough damage to breach through armour ;) And I'd say its pretty weak to say: "cannot deal enough damage with MARTIAL ARTS? Well use combat specials.."

Still.. as I already tried to tell you.. I'm doing more damage and crits with fighter specials (lower skill level) then I do with my martial arts. So its false to say elbow or knee only works if you're amroured.

Seems like I have to accept things like they are. It's ok. Just wanted to know the reasons :wink:
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#12 Post by yandros » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:35 pm

Hi!

I wanted to state my oppinion about this discussion about combat specials.

As you can see in the game, there are quite a lot of them and most can be used by every character.
These special moves are divided into different categories -fighter, martial, thief and magical (miracles and spells)- and they are quite different one to another.
The fighter specials using a weapon (or heavy armours on certain places of the body) should always do more damage than martial specials which are mostly used barehanded. On the same point, a well scored spell should usually be deadlier than a fighter special.
Actually, I think the martial arts are quite powerful, since quite a lot of them have nice secondary effects (even if they are not a critical hit at all).

In conclusion: I do not think they are so unbalanced at all and they have been checked and tuned during years of mud development.

Yandros.

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#13 Post by jezz » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:21 am

It comes to mind...

Armour drum: A guy with 70 protection average on all his body? Don't worry, he will regret all that armours.

Hold: You wouldn't believe how many times I'd wishes I could keep my foe in the room ;)

Shockpoke: Well, a must first attack by any shaolin, lowering agility and making your foe to get tired faster. I can't say that's bad...

Multisalto: Ehrrrmm... your foe will lose 2/3 regular attacks. And not only your foe, but the team ;)

I could continue, the list is long, and I'm saying it having been a shaolin myself. True you can't rely on brute force and think that you can charge your enemy in frenzy and see him die. That's only true with few guilds. Shaolin specials DON'T do much damage and i'll doubt they'll ever do... but it's not pure damage what they are made for.

Just my 2cc

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#14 Post by yegerfin » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:10 am

I've tried to not put any comments since yeger isn't really average shaolin, so also don't take him as example to prove your point that shaolin are good fighters ;)

In general i agree that shaolin specials do less damage and crit quite less often then common specials - even common specials done wearing regular shaolin 'armour', and lower mastery. It is true that large variety of shaolin specials give you quite few options in combat, but chance to do those (especially in PvPs) are quite lower - with 100 hold i've yet to stop a player from walking away, especially armoured one (never managed in PvP if i remember right, and got the effect only in perhaps dosen of i don't know how many spars yeger had), and about every 20th hold will give keeping effect against NPC. Keeping effect lasting no more then round or two in average. I can't remember, but i think hold effect of satho miracle is longer, and it's definitly with higher chance of success ;)

Similar goes for most of other shaolin specials - they are quite good in theory, and most of the time against NPCs, but i think average shaolin (even master) doesn't really have much chance to GET that nice mentioned effect of those few he selects to use in a combat against similar age/experience oponent of most of other guilds. And even if they do manage, recovery time from most of them (falling? flickup, dispel? recast, unwield? wield) it is always shorter then delay needed to do (not succeed) in that special again - recasting being only probable exception here. Most of these fights would end up in shaolin loosing/leaving the fight.

And, also, seems all of shaolin specials are relatively easy to learn-by-watching, so they aren't really shaolin-exclusive, especially with new skill system. I'm not sure i know of anyone who learned iron will or any of thief specials by watching alone. (even for backstab afaik you can't get that first point by watching unless you're being backstabbed, and i heard even that is removed now). Yes, i know they don't use them as often as we do in public, but i've also seen quite few attemts of them, and i'm sure others did too. I'd still expect at least few non thieves to know it (or they hide it good :) ), since seems almost every 30-40 day char has got at least one shaolin special...

Ok, i'll stop now, this is starting to sound like whining and moving away from the topic even to me :)

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#15 Post by yandros » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:46 pm

As guildwizard of thieves myself, I think most of the thief skills (I do prefer to call them 'rogue skills') can be learnt, even if you don't have a single point on them (hide, sneak, open lock, steal, pick pocket, find/remove traps, set traps, juggling).
There are a few exceptions which actually are learned by watching and that I won't mention here for obvious reasons.
Since you inserted 'backstab' skill into the discussion, I can tell you that is pretty easy to learn it (under the right conditions) and it's not needed to receive a backstab to learn the first point at all.

The thing is that most of thieves do prefer to be careful about showing their skills around (and seems they've managed pretty well), but I must admit it's more easy for them since some of the skills are non-combat-related.

I keep on thinking that some abilities have pros and contras, but still I don't see the point in comparing shaolin specials with combat specials or with thief specials since they are all a different thing with a different effect.

Yandros.

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#16 Post by jezz » Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:55 pm

I must admit in my times shaolin specials did criticals quite a lot, and there were even ways to increase the % of criticals.

If it has been lowered now or not I don't know, but I trust Yeger if he says shaolin specials don't make the effect as often as they should, beeing a char with close-to 100 in nearly every shao special, and also with physical stats more than high ;)

I still think an elf trying to sidekick a dwarf in battle-armour, no matter how fast or skilled the elf is, shouldn't be able to hurt the dwarf at all.

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#17 Post by stilgar » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:27 pm

True, no chance to hurt him with sidekick, enough a to crit him with a legbreaker :wink:

The original point was: Combat specials rely on brute force, shaolin specials rely on speed and agility. I've only asked if it is so.. then how come even an elf (mostly trained for speed) can crit more with combat specials then with shaolin specials? :wink:

Also, if this is so.. then why would anyone bother learning or developing martials arts? :wink: If it was designed to be an unarmed combt art, then there SHOULD be a way to give hard times to ANY ooponent, or at least most of them :wink:

But to add another question: IF we accept Jezz's point, or things like they are now, then we agree on that shaolins SHOULD use weapons to be effective in PvP. YET most of their specials support NO weapon?

Do not misunderstand me, meant no whining (even if this sounds like one to you) just questions. If you think things are ok like this.. its ok, just wanted to know, how to train my character firther :wink:
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#18 Post by Jegga » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:52 pm

There should not be any "class" of character that is effective against EVERY opponent. This rule is called game balance and exists in every single game out there (to better or worse degree depending on the game).

Shaolins kill monsters like there's no tomorrow. Noone said they were to be effective in PVP. Yet I still want to see anyone openly facing Yegerfin without fear. I won't join the "but (insert guild name here)s are overpowered", but don't make assumptions on how a certain combat style (or game mechanic) should be, just based on what you'd like it to be.

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#19 Post by jezz » Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:30 pm

I want to add too that I never thought shaolin skills were based only on agi :|

Just a hint: Jezz is 135 days old and he can't stand a troll for more than 2 rounds :)

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#20 Post by yegerfin » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:09 am

Jegga wrote:There should not be any "class" of character that is effective against EVERY opponent. This rule is called game balance and exists in every single game out there (to better or worse degree depending on the game).
This one i agree with...
Jegga wrote:Shaolins kill monsters like there's no tomorrow. Noone said they were to be effective in PVP.
But not really this one. I don't think it shold be divided 'you're good against npcs, so you're not good in PVP'... I'd rather see it as completely separate categories - you're good against some NPCs (shaolin aren't good against all of them ;) ), and some player guilds, and not against other...
Jegga wrote:Yet I still want to see anyone openly facing Yegerfin without fear.
Hmm, korsario would definitly beat him up easily... order members? ;) Yeah, but it's not because he's shaolin, more due to 200+ days of training (yeah, i'm geas addict, i know) and big spear :) imagine that yeger spent that time as legion/crusader/order member instead, and you'll see my point (last one probably most frightening of all :) )

But i'm going off of the topic again :)

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