Asador vs Elvandar

[Lauriert]

So, as everyone who was involved in the raid of Asador knows, Asador has archers. A metric ton of them. Asador is very hard to get into without help from player characters. With that being said, Elvandar has 5 guards at the gate that a lone deathpriest is able to kill. Elvandar is virtually defenseless. The defenses of these cities are horribly unbalanced. Should Asador be better defended? Maybe. But not to the point it is this unbalanced.

[ila]

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[Lauriert]

Well, as you pointed out, the Elvandar guards are misequipped for being elves. But not only that, Elvandar doesn't have anything close to what Asador has with their archers.

[Arsicas]

Actually, Elvandar having some archers on the walls would make sense. Though they do have roaming archers in the forest, but those guys seem to be pretty easily dispatched as well and don't really help when someone is assaulting the gates.

Also, someone pointed out that the Elvandar temple gets closed off when attacked. Is there actually a way to open it back up if all the guards/priests get killed? Or are any attackers just kinda stuck in there? (Basically, is there any point in trying to attack the temple, even if, say, the Taniel church is your true enemy?) Not trying to get spoilers or anything, just wondering if it makes sense mechanically or if it should maybe be adjusted.

[ila]

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[Laewyloth]

As **one** of the victims of the death-trap that is the Taniel temple, and after being screamed at that "This is working as intended"...

No, there is absolutely, literally, with 100% finality - no point in assaulting the temple (unlike every other location in the world) because:

• The NPCs can kill you, quite literally instantly. This is not "Oh, I'm being hurt by miracles" instantly, where you can defend appropriately. I mean they just do a strange, magic attack that drains you to juuuust about near death so that a single hit from just about anything, will kill you. Again, this is not based on how beefy your character is, or whether you're protected 'right'. It's just "A thing that happens when you enter combat with the NPCs" there.
• Your corpse is then stuck there, with no way to retrieve it except through the benevolent gesture of those you're attacking (i.e. the gates do not open back up 'after a few minutes' nor can you destroy, bash, lock-pick, or magic 'em open
• There is then another set of doors beyond that.

Plus, aside from that, there's only one way in or out of Elvandar, as opposed to *coughs* some other cities where there's multiple access points.

Complaining that Elvandar isn't as defensible as Asador seems a tiny bit like sour grapes. Unless we're talkin' about changing Elvandar's design entirely. In which case, I'm all for.

Suggestions to make things equitable:

• Make the Taniel temple as 'chief a destination for raiding' as anything else in the city. I.e. remove the issues mentioend above
• Make the guards thematically appropriate (yes, no twohanders. Yes, arrows and slings and pew-pews!)
• Have any 'scouts' outside, heed the call from the gong and converge on the city. Meaning if raiders -do not- kill them first, then there's more defenders in the city
• Add another exit from the city

[Delia]

I would rather see Gwenlanea to be ridiculously hard to raid and the church more accessible to raiding. Elvandar gates are a joke but I think the justification has always been potentially more players for defence.

[Allalltar]

Hi,

Two things on this thread that I want to address:

1. Taniel temple being unraidable:

That is a myth. The changes were introduced because it was raided constantly by roughly three people. I've seen a group of five people breaking into the temple after the changes a few times, the main point is mostly finding out how. In addition, those guards were designed in a time where the average player character was weaker then they are now.

Their chasing is to avoid people simply going outside, healing up quickly and going back in to tackle the still damaged guards. These changes were a response to frequent abuse of game mechanics. Raiding guilds is something that should be hard, not something that you can do if two people are just bored. Bring an actual strong group and you'll notice that the temple is indeed doable, although, I'll admit, quite a challenge.

I'm however open to suggestions that will allow people to retrieve their corpses / be warned, in cases such as ending up on the Taniel enemy list without being aware of it, which is what caused the two most recent complaints about the taniel temple that am aware of.

2. Asador having stronger defenses then Elvandar

Elvandar is the elven capitol and as such designed to be an open city where a lot of trade and similar goes through. It is more open and while designed to be protective, it is not that easy to defend. Asador on the other hand, is a bridgehead, designed with fortification in mind, a miserable but defensible settlement in the middle of nowhere, designed to be held against superior forces, because that's how it normally is: A lot of people defending Elvandar with a few people raiding, whereas asador has potentially a lot of raiders and very few defenders.

As for Gwenlanea being potentially too easy and Elvandar guards using a 'wrong' fighting style, I think those are things that can be discussed / analyzed. If anyone of that raid wants to provide me with a log of that raid, I'll certainly look it over.

[Melendil]

I'm however open to suggestions that will allow people to retrieve their corpses / be warned, in cases such as ending up on the Taniel enemy list without being aware of it, which is what caused the two most recent complaints about the taniel temple that am aware of.

Maybe the guards or VNPCs could haul the corpse out through the back gate? Makes sense they'd get rid of the corpse, rather than staining the lovely polished floor

[ila]

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[Laewyloth]

Both the ideas above would be -great-!

Also, just to address Allalltar's other points (respectfully!)

• Thank you for the bit of history / rationale for making the temple NPCs so difficult, it's actually super helpful to know -why- something is the way it is! I do want to make a suggestion that the NPCs be re-examined for the 'current' playerbase though, just as they might have been in the past. I'm not sure how feasible something like this is, but having a scaling difficulty based on a minimum number of players could be neat (i.e. you don't want Luthien to be killed by any less than 3 well-built characters, but you also don't want to 1/Insta-kill a single player (i.e. what we've experienced with the special NPC attack that he does) and 2/ Just have him be 'demolished' by a group of 10 players. I.e. it'd be easier if the -right- number of players attack him, than either too few, or too many.
• The 'controls' of the temple are still a bit overpowered, no matter how you want to look at it as it is literally unescapable. I understand the concern around not wanting people to just run in, shoot an arrow, flee out, and repeat - but maybe there's a better way to accomplish this (a magic aura making it -harder- to successfully flee, along with the chasing mobs) than an un-openable gate. Players who -have- some form of sneakiness (spells, skills, etc) should be able to make use of those, as that's kind of the situation they're -designed- for, right?
• Keeping in mind the other points about "Elvandar is less defended by NPCs because it should have more players", shouldn't this somewhat extend to the temple as well? Again, I totally understand your points and the history for making the NPCs much more intimidating (it's dumb that any single player could just kill -any- important NPC, and all kings/queens/priest NPCs should absolutely be -hard- to kill and require multiple people) but if a realistic 'raiding party' from the side of evil is only ever going to be 4 or 5 people large, shouldn't the Taniel temple be scaled down appropriately particularly since it's "the heart and soul of Elvandar"?

Not trying to argue for making things substantially easier or soloable, it just seems like things might need to be balanced 'down' a bit given the playerbase and the realities of the current setting (13 players raiding Asador as opposed to 4 raiding Elvandar)

In addition to the above, and the other great points around making the guards more Elf-like:

1) Maybe bring in some animals?! It'd be kind of neat to see one or two of the guards with vicious attack pets (angry boar-type-creatures, or nymphs)
2) More bows and daggers, less big-ole-swords and heavy armor
3) A second entrance/exit to the city that -isn't- tied to the Tanielites.

[ghalt]

The weird thing to me is how the patrol helpfully stops at Bimok just in case a bad guy wants to stand right south of the gate to taunt defenders. I'm not sure it's not designed that way just because someone thought the roleplay was more interesting that way, but man, I still want to talk to whoever's in charge of military forces in elvandar and have a goshdurn word with them.

It's also a bit odd that the city of elves has no archers, but on the other hand it's also very likely to have pcs around to fulfill that role.

I'd say it's pretty well defended compared to say, Arborea, with its multiple entrances and fewer guards. The thing that's helped single deathpriests get into Elvandar in the past though is the dark elf raids... that's basically a free raiding party that a sathonite makes drastically more deadly.

[Lauriert]

Addressing the thought that Elvandar guards fight "wrong", here's the argument. Elves, as we all know, have amazing AGI, some of the best in the game. They have almost unrivaled quickness. This comes at the cost to the fact that they hit like a wet noodle and are as durable as a sack of flour. Their current equipment loadouts consist of two-handers and chainmail with plate helmets. This style of combat is counter-intuitive and doesn't play to their strengths, quickness. Instead, they use armor and weapons that slow them down while not giving them much payoff. They aren't strong enough to get the full effect out of their two-handers and the chainmail doesn't help much when they are fragile as all hell anyway. These equipment loadouts hinder their greatest strength while not providing any substantial benefit. Instead, I would imagine Elven guards to use lighter armors and quicker weapons to play to their strengths a lot better. Things like rapiers, knifes, short swords I think would work well for them. And bows too, maybe give the patrols an archer or two.

[Ioca]

I sent Allalltar a PM with thoughts about Elvandar's guards!

As for Taniel's temple, it really is just unfair. Along with all the stuff Lae listed, healing also gets turned off in the temple, so even if you do somehow manage to slip away to meditate, you're just stuck at death's door. The only scenario I can envision winning in it is like if they have no active defenders at all.

Picture this - a team of five people (which is a pretty big team for the playerbase) enters the temple. The three priests immediately set three of them to death's door. Newbie-Taniel-Priest presumably hears about the invaders on their orb line, and walks in and casts any ol' area-attack miracle. So, three people die. Two are left... and they're not going to win, for sure, because I bet those priests will cast that miracle again, and the priest could just walk away for a second while they do.

On top of that, and I'm trying to be super tame about how I say this, but who would want to even risk that when it entails your gear being at the mercy of some players who may or may not be maliciously motivated to hold your items hostage? I'm not throwing out accusations here - it literally happened to me. It wasn't fun. I just wanted to log off but I had to sit there and beg for things back for quite a long time, and I didn't even know I was an enemy. I think there should always be a way to escape the temple so there's at least the illusion that your things aren't left completely at the mercy of other players who may or may not care about stepping across OOC boundaries.

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[Allalltar]

Hoi,

As for Taniel's temple, it really is just unfair. Along with all the stuff Lae listed, healing also gets turned off in the temple, so even if you do somehow manage to slip away to meditate, you're just stuck at death's door. The only scenario I can envision winning in it is like if they have no active defenders at all.

I find it so super strange what people think is actually implemented in the game sometimes. What makes you think we'd actually do something like that? There isn't even code in the game, as far as I am aware, that "turns off healing". That was either an issue with your critical wounds or something else that kept you from healing, but certainly not code that we put there to make the temple harder.

Picture this - a team of five people (which is a pretty big team for the playerbase) enters the temple. The three priests immediately set three of them to death's door. Newbie-Taniel-Priest presumably hears about the invaders on their orb line, and walks in and casts any ol' area-attack miracle. So, three people die. Two are left... and they're not going to win, for sure, because I bet those priests will cast that miracle again, and the priest could just walk away for a second while they do.

Just barging in like you do a normal round of mob grinding is certainly end with all five of you dead. Having a party composition that is prepared for this? five people have done it in the past. I mean, there's still a log sitting on my computer somewhere from the day when they actually pulled this of. You may find you need the help of more then one profession though, to pull this off. It -is- a heavy, difficult task. As raiding should be. It is something you plan, where you think about what you can do to counter what... how to deal with individual problems this gives you, but as long as you approach it as a random mob encounter, you'll likely not succeed. I'd treat it like planing to take on the lich tower, for example. I would say, a cleric, two fighters, a mage and an alchemist can take the temple down (just a sample setup, you could certainly find other setups that can work).

Again, raiding is not something two people do out of boredom. It should take planning, having a lot of people online and a good strategy. Look at the individual problems at treat it like a puzzle. Find ways to deal with the individual problems involved in this fight and figure out how to remove them. I would bet, from the top of my head, I can name three different solutions to all problems you face in that fight.

That being said, if there are creative ideas to deal with individual problems suggested, they may or may not get implemented, if they're general ( i. e. not directly targetting a specific guild ) and reward a creative playstyle, I could see myself spending some time creating the one or other tool that people can use in such situations.

On top of that, and I'm trying to be super tame about how I say this, but who would want to even risk that when it entails your gear being at the mercy of some players who may or may not be maliciously motivated to hold your items hostage? I'm not throwing out accusations here - it literally happened to me. It wasn't fun. I just wanted to log off but I had to sit there and beg for things back for quite a long time, and I didn't even know I was an enemy. I think there should always be a way to escape the temple so there's at least the illusion that your things aren't left completely at the mercy of other players who may or may not care about stepping across OOC boundaries.

I certainly disagree that there should always be a surefire way to escape a deathtrap defense set for a guild hall. Because, if there is, people will start abusing it again, by running away and healing up quicker then the npcs will and coming back when they're healed up or just suicide run the guards. Both have happened more then I want to recount and no, as long as that is my call to make, that will not change. Also, for a raid, would you really plan to bring your most valueable items or would you not rather try to have expendable gear? No raid guarantees you that you can get your stuff back easily, especially if you perished behind enemy lines ( though I hope it is still common courtesy to return that gear ).

-however-, I'm all for preventing unneccessary death / troublesome item recovery because someone did not tell you that you are on an enemy list. I'll give that some thought. Maybe you get your body dumped somewhere or it's shipped to elvandars "place for the disgraced dead". We'll see.

The 'controls' of the temple are still a bit overpowered, no matter how you want to look at it as it is literally unescapable. I understand the concern around not wanting people to just run in, shoot an arrow, flee out, and repeat - but maybe there's a better way to accomplish this (a magic aura making it -harder- to successfully flee, along with the chasing mobs) than an un-openable gate. Players who -have- some form of sneakiness (spells, skills, etc) should be able to make use of those, as that's kind of the situation they're -designed- for, right?

If people would actually respect when they're beaten, I would be somewhat in agreement with the statement that escape skills should let you escape. However, people are notorously NOT willing to accept that they have been defeated, especially by npcs, no matter what kind of hardships we put in their way. This one is on you ( the public you, not the specific you ).

As for the taniel temple being inescapable. This isn't true either. Its -very damn hard-, yes, but it is not inescapable, if you planned ahead. Again: accidental death, looking into. Raid: You need to plan and plan hard.

Keeping in mind the other points about "Elvandar is less defended by NPCs because it should have more players", shouldn't this somewhat extend to the temple as well? Again, I totally understand your points and the history for making the NPCs much more intimidating (it's dumb that any single player could just kill -any- important NPC, and all kings/queens/priest NPCs should absolutely be -hard- to kill and require multiple people) but if a realistic 'raiding party' from the side of evil is only ever going to be 4 or 5 people large, shouldn't the Taniel temple be scaled down appropriately particularly since it's "the heart and soul of Elvandar"?

Well, as said, it has been done by five people several times. Believe me, it really comes down to planning and strategy. That fight provides threats that the game has counter measures against. Find those counter measures and use them. Or ask the people who have successfully raided before. Sure am biased here because I know which weaknesses this defense has and knowing how you can exploit each of them.

and for elvandar gate guards: I'll try to look at that problem too.

[Israfel]

With more organisation, tactics, and knowledge of Asador's defenses, I am sure our team of twelve could steamroll that defense.

Until the baddies start amassing a team that big for an unplanned raid on Elvandar I'm okay with Asador benefiting from a strong passive NPC defense.

[Laewyloth]

To Allaltar:

Again, thank you for the history and perspective! It again, makes more sense, and maybe you're right - we just need to do a bit more exploring or thinking.

I will point out that (speaking purely from my POV) it seems like we are still disagreeing on mechanical difficult vs scaling difficulty and that it's stemming from "Well, players abused X in the past, so they're going to abuse X in the future". I absolutely don't claim to know what all has happened in the game (I'm new!) but I do feel like voicing my concern as a new player is important, so I hope this doesn't get taken the wrong way, or as me just belittling or complaining about the game:

You have two cities and 'factions' (for lack of a better word) that are fundamentally opposed and different. One is supposed to be -mechanically- difficult to siege and attack, because that faction is supposed to be less populated. This means there are generally less people to defend or attack in its interest, and so you doubled up so-to-speak on NPCs and traps. This is working well, and as intended.

However, the other city is supposed to be -mechanically- less difficult to siege and attack, because that faction is supposed to be -more- populated, and have more defenders. I.e. the difficulty of laying siege to -this- city isn't based on how many NPCs or traps there are, it's based on how many players show up to defend it. Normally, this is also working well, and is intended.

What I'm trying to say is that it seems like the entirety of Elvandar pretty well aligns with that second thought, -except- for the Taniel guildhall. And the only reason that's problematic right now is because the -current- bit of conflict is less about Elvandar, and more about that specific guild. There is a very real 'thought' or perspective, that that specific guild, and its guild hall is 'out of balance' with the rest of the game, and that there isn't really a way to remedy it politically (see the other forum thread on Power Trips) or now, mechanically (unless the strategy you mentioned in your last post gets figured out). Not saying this is your problem to solve, just providing context on why there's probably -so much consternation- about this one, super specific part of Elvandar in comparison to the rest of the city.

So while things might have been done for very good reason in the past, I think what the current "under-dog" players are saying is: It doesn't seem viable, given the number of players -or- mechanics, as demonstrated by a well-planned, 'notified' raid on Elvandar (i.e. this wasn't the 13+ people attacking Asador unexpectedly raid). Maybe this could be solved through some neat religious RP instead, rather than mechanically, or maybe something else entirely. Again, just trying to give some context here as to why "Well it is this way, so just figure it out, or coordinate better" isn't encouraging (but totally your prerogative to say!)

[isengoo]

I tried to break down the door outside of the temple but none of the commands I tried worked.