Asador vs Elvandar

[ferranifer]

Attack on Elvandar: 4 attackers, no loses? A complete slaughter of NPCs and PCs, including some top tier characters and the Queen. Attempts to attack a guild.
Attack on Asador: 12 attackers, many loses. Barely made it through the gates. No attempt to attack a guild.

Not to speak about how the powerbase of the attack on Elvandar isn't even Asador and retributive actions are impossible.

Who's the underdog?

C'mon guys.

[Laewyloth]

Attack on Elvandar: 4 attackers, no loses? A complete slaughter of NPCs and PCs, including some top tier characters and the Queen. Attempts to attack a guild.
Attack on Asador: 12 attackers, many loses. Barely made it through the gates. No attempt to attack a guild.

Not to speak about how the powerbase of the attack on Elvandar isn't even Asador and retributive actions are impossible.

Who's the underdog?

C'mon guys.

The underdog is the side with 4 people. Literally, it is that side. I don't see how that's up for debate. The fact that that side has an equal or greater amount of top-tier players who attended the raid shouldn't be super relevant.

Upon re-reading this thread and my own responses, I'm just as guilty of this as anyone else but:

This thread turned from one person complaining about the difference in defenses between two cities, into the opposing side complaining about how incredibly difficult it is to obtain their -actual- objective (which was not just raiding Elvandar, but ICly dealing a blow to the Taniel church and those of its allies who are 'controlling' Elvandar). This probably belonged in its own thread where we continue to argue about how IC systems (the council, the judge position in general, and the 'lore' that people keep falling back on) prevents any sort of change, and instead, -requires- mechanical, PVP aggression.

Elvandar guards should be improved to be more Elf-like. Asador defenses are good the way they are. Allalltar's confirmed there -is- some mystical and magical way to raid the Taniel guild hall. Thirteen players is more than four. The end!

[Arsicas]

Also, re: Elvandar’s defenses, in the most recent attack, I heard one gong, summoned a couple elementals (which took maybe a couple minutes at most?) and headed toward the gates, and the group was already in the middle of the city. Granted, it was a pretty hefty group with 4 PCs, 2 elementals, and 3 mercs. But, just saying there wasn’t much of a chance for PCs to come help defend the gates. Although non-mages don’t really have to prep much first so could’ve gotten there sooner.

[ghalt]

Not to speak about how the powerbase of the attack on Elvandar isn't even Asador and retributive actions are impossible.

It's partly impossible because there's nothing left to take. Elvandar has been inaccessible to some of those characters for months if it wasn't right out, Arborea for another. If your first impulse is to hit the screw-over button, you've got less recourses left when you're trying to find bigger guns.

[ila]

gone

[Zehren]

it'd be cool if cities had active upkeep of some sort, so that PCs could contribute to a city's passive defences.

that'd give something to do if attacked beyond grindfest or revenge trips

Do you just want a sense of justice that people shouldn't freely attack towns?

I think the cities used to be used as grinding zones back in the day

[ila]

gone

[Zehren]

Plus, aside from that, there's only one way in or out of Elvandar, as opposed to *coughs* some other cities where there's multiple access points.

This isn't correct.

It'd be cool to bring some rope up on the walls and just ramp on down from the city, though.

[Laewyloth]

Plus, aside from that, there's only one way in or out of Elvandar, as opposed to *coughs* some other cities where there's multiple access points.

This isn't correct.

It'd be cool to bring some rope up on the walls and just ramp on down from the city, though.

Fine, fine. There is -one other way which requires a solution to one of the other problems I mentioned in the thread-! Trying not to give out more spoilers here.

Rephrasing: There ought to be another, easily-accessible or even skill-checked exit. If there is, and I've missed it, I will go and look :< but I'm pretty thorough in my lurking.

[Delia]

it'd be cool if cities had active upkeep of some sort, so that PCs could contribute to a city's passive defences.

that'd give something to do if attacked beyond grindfest or revenge trips

I would love to see cities as resource stockpiles where characters could contribute to and use the resources for common goals.

[ferranifer]

To Ila: If I was involved in the conflict I'd like to have some sort of way to respond indeed. Outlaw is a way to respond, but clearly doesn't work when you simply don't care about further repercussions. It's a failure of a system for behavior control. The outcome of all this, once the dust settles down, should be a return to a harmonic environment. What is the actual end goal here?

To Lae: 12 people cannot do what 4 people can. 4 people can dramatically overpower a city and all its defenders. 12 people can barely make it after a grueling death-fest with literally no defense. An entire political and religious faction of the game is helpless against the whims of a few outcasts. Who's the underdog? Be graceful in victory and in defeat.

To Delia: I'd like something like that too! It would help at many levels. For example, it would help remove the bitter aftertaste of attacking and destroying a city and coming out with nothing (which I've felt a few times). Some actions have heavy repercussions (e.g. kidnapping/killing the Queen) but it's mostly just a struggle against incredibly superior forces (in the case of the "goodies") or a parade against forces that you overpower so much you just walk over them (in the case of Elvandar). Having resource-based militias/armies would be a nice way for people to get involved if their timezones don't match, or they simply don't enjoy the thrills of getting humiliated at someone else's whim. Resources that can be stolen, of course! That's a goal I'd had enjoyed when playing the evil side. It opens up doors to politics of recruitment and offers activities to everyone, regardless of their power. It'd be a good way to represent allegiance/population, though it'd have to be a system that rewards something more than just playtime.

[ila]

gone

[Delia]

Very much magical power becomes political power if there is nothing to keep it in check. Nothing is out of your hands either. You just decide on a course of action as a player.

[ila]

gone

[Delia]

Sure, if you decide so. Not necessarily a bad thing to decide. Not saying that(just to clarify).

[ila]

gone

[Laewyloth]

To Lae: 12 people cannot do what 4 people can. 4 people can dramatically overpower a city and all its defenders. 12 people can barely make it after a grueling death-fest with literally no defense. An entire political and religious faction of the game is helpless against the whims of a few outcasts. Who's the underdog? Be graceful in victory and in defeat.

I'll admit, I'm getting weirdly tired with trying to explain this or understand it, but I'm going to try not to be mean, rude, or overtly snarky here.

How many people actively play Geas right now? 20? 30? If the answer is less than 50 that means the number of characters those 'entire political and religious factions' constitute upwards of 25% of the active playerbase. That's a -fourth- (and quite likely, closer to half) of all the players actively playing. If those players had opted to defend Elvandar, it's quite likely that the outcome of the raid would have been different. That is clearly -by design-, right? Allalltar has said "Elvandar should be defended by PCs, rather by NPCs - and Asador the inverse of that, since there are going to be fewer 'evils' there to guard it." Is it the fault of the raiding party that there -weren't- those same 13 asador-raiders sittin' at the gates of Elvandar waiting for them? No.

Now again, to the comment(s) about being the underdogs. I am asking this genuinely, and can honestly say whatever answer I get I'll just take and move on, but: How in the world can you say those "Political and religious factions" are helpless? The -entire reason Elvandar got raided is because those factions had the power to disrupt massive swathes of the game for these players-. With no ability to counterplay, -except- for a raid. And let me explain that, because to me, this makes perfect sense:

• Players A and B pick a fight with Players C and D over IC, political disputes. Despite Players C and D doing precisely what the system fosters (i.e. voting against laws, refusing to vote, etc.)
• Players C and D fight back (at this point, purely in terms of notes, angry tirades, and threats)
• Players A and B, being leaders of a religious faction, bring in Player E as an ally, to further pressure players C and D to give up, apologize, and behave.
• Players C and D refuse, and get outlawed (this is an abbreviated timeline, it shouldn't matter for illustrative purposes)
• Players C and D can no longer -change the situation by voting or engaging in the political situation-. Players C and D can also no longer -just- target players A and B, because Players A and B have brought in Player E, and now there is a larger group that is in agreement that Players C and D are terrible, awful souls for daring to play the political game in bullet point number 1 above.
• Since the players can literally do -nothing- to affect change, except resort to pvp, they do so. Knowing full well that at any point, the overwhelmingly-superior-numbers of those religious and political factions could just decide to capture, torture, or kill them.
• There is now an entire thread about how it's unfair that because Players C and D aren't 'evil' or part of Asador, there's nothing Players A, B, E and 'everyone else who wants to bandwagon' can do to them???

This is -exactly- the point Ghalt was making in the Power Trip post. Some players have forced some other players into a corner. Those players have put a significant amount of time and energy into building their characters, and -did- try to resolve matters through the established, appropriate, political systems. When that failed, rather than addressing the fact that the religious and political factions can be, and are, entirely controlled by a small number of PCs with no opportunity for change or counterplay (as a result of the outdated constructs mentioned at the start of this thread and elsewhere), things just continued to escalate. Players A and B shouldn't have to just give up because three other players tell them to. And similarly, Players C and D shouldn't either.

Now all of that said, the people in a position of power started this, which inherently means the people -not in a position of power- are the underdogs. Just because the people in a position of power might not be mechanically as 'top tier' as the other players, doesn't seem to and shouldn't matter. It honestly shouldn't have even -come- to this point. And the fact that it did, and the players who raided Elvandar -tried- to be good sports and let people know what was happening, while the 'return raid on Asador' was just hastily thrown together in response with little-to-no communication, should again...speak -volumes- about the current state of the game. As should those in this thread saying that response wasn't "fulfilling enough" because it didn't do anything to the baddies~.

Maybe everyone should just reincarnate.

[Delia]

I think what Ferranifer was trying to say is that even one big character on one side can sway the entire course of the game. This has been a constant back and forth for as long as I have known Geas. If you have a group of high skill and high stats characters, they will dominate much larger groups of lesser characters. Much like once you can kill an orc, you can kill a hundred.

Once there was a Crusader/Taniel posse that very much forced evils under the rock. Eventually everybody got bored and moved on to alts or other games.

Usually it is the evil side that has a small constant playerbase with high tier characters and it has almost always been that way. For some reason good side has trouble keeping players. I cannot really comment on that as I have never played those guilds.

Evil side pretty much focuses on killing power and attracts such minded players. All very fine and good.

Good side is a ragtag band of stragglers if there is no strong crusaders presence. Where the most evils all have high combat skills, most "high tier" goodies tend to have high language or music skills or something else similarly relevant. Generally speaking four evils vs. 12 goodies? Four evils are like bring more like 24. I have seen a single high tier evil character giving the run around to five goodies several times. Sure, player skills matter too.

I do not mean this as a commentary to the current situation or mean to say this is wrong, that is good. This is just several years of observing Geas dynamics and game balance and hopefully clearing a possible misunderstanding as emotions seem to run a little hot here.

[Laewyloth]

I do not mean this as a commentary to the current situation or mean to say this is wrong, that is good. This is just several years of observing Geas dynamics and game balance and hopefully clearing a possible misunderstanding as emotions seem to run a little hot here.

Your post, and this line in particular makes a tremendous amount of sense as far as how the 'opposing side' might be viewing things which is what I haven't necessarily been understanding! So thank you :3

Emotions are running a bit hot, and I'll admit it seems like there have been some predictable answers on both sides here, which is what's made -me- huffy.

[Allalltar]

Emotions are running a bit hot, and I'll admit it seems like there have been some predictable answers on both sides here, which is what's made -me- huffy.

I've been trying to communicate for a while now to people to try and take a step back, take a deep breath and realize this is a game that you're playing with -each- other.

I realize you can't like every "actor" in this game and that there may be some OOC grump towards the one or other group, but if you're arriving at the sort of posts that are made in this thread, please try to reign yourself in (meaning all of you, every one posting on here).

And don't look at it and be like "oh, can't mean me, I'm fine.". I'm a firm believer in "it takes two to brew a conflict", everyone involved in this had some part to some extend and everyone can try and do their best to keep this IC and ensure that it isn't just stomping on people OOC.

And if you're now thinking "But they have done this and that and that is unfair"... trust me for my experience even if you don't believe me anything else... somewhere on the other side, chances are they feel the same way about you. Truth is, in a conflict like that, you are not objective. You have an agenda. And as long as you keep having that agenda, you won't be seeing clearly.