The State of PVP

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still MUD-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

Message
Author
Lauriert
Master
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:42 pm

The State of PVP

#1 Post by Lauriert » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:49 am

So, as we all know, PVP is a big part of roleplay. Goodies and Baddies don't tend to like each other much. And often, they express this by whacking each other. But, if you've noticed, you really can't engage in PVP unless you're really REALLY strong or if you're in a group. Usually PVP either boils down to 1v1 duels that usually go the way of the evil character, or the goodies ganking an evil into oblivion.

It's easy to know why that is though. It lies with how evils are not only designed, but are played because of de facto rules. Evil characters tend to be strong, really strong. If you try playing a weak evil, you're gonna get killed. A lot. Half the continent will be after you. And you would likely die, a lot. So, evils tend to be really strong on their own. And then, we get to the fact that the evil guilds. Order and Sathos, are designed with the fact that evils get outnumbered in mind. They are designed to be able to handle getting ganked, and as a result, you pretty much have to gank them in order to win.

This is problematic because on one hand, you have evils always winning 1v1 duels unless the goodie overpowers them so hard it's laughable. On the other, you have evils constantly getting outnumbered and ganked because there are so few of them. So what I'm saying now is, wouldn't it be nice if we could have some epic 1v1 clashes between two characters of near equal skill? And also, let the evils have numbers to where we could have larger scale battles without it being one sided?

I do have a solution. As I said, the game is built around the premise that evils will be outnumbered. Instead of that, we could make it an option that you can start as an evil character in Asador. And at the same time, try to make the evil start newbie friendly in case any new players want to go that route. This can include giving Asador some meaningful utilities and quests to do. And also, providing hunting zones that are safe for newbie evils to use. If we let characters start evil, there can be evils of all powers to clash with goods of all powers. And then, at the same time, nerf the evil guilds to be more balanced with the good ones. Since evils aren't to be outnumbered anymore, this suddenly makes more sense.

Now, I know what the biggest concern will be. "But, nerfing evils now will make them unplayable in the short term." And that may be true for the moment. But the hope is that by allowing an evil start, more evil characters will be created and will balance the numbers on each side better.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: The State of PVP

#2 Post by Delia » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:25 am

The problem is a bit wider reaching... Evil characters are usually very united as usually it just means Sathos, maybe with Order. Having just one guild to coordinate makes things much easier where goodies have Taniels, Crusaders, Shaos and Rangers constantly bickering with each other and juggling with guild orbs and telepathy items. Imagine if all the goodies were in the same guild? Scary.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Lauriert
Master
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#3 Post by Lauriert » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:26 am

I'd be open to giving the evils more guild variety too.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: The State of PVP

#4 Post by Delia » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:23 am

There is also a big different in available activities which invariably affects power balance too. Evils have little else than the +1 game of grinding mobs and thus increasing your combat power where goodies can easily invest hundreds of skill points into music and languages, for example.

Now as the equation slowly forms, who will naturally have the upper hand? Musicians and linguistics or cold blooded killers?
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Ioca
Professional
Posts: 80
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:25 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#5 Post by Ioca » Thu Dec 31, 2020 7:52 am

Evils are allowed within the layman guilds too! The skalds happened to have a pretty prominent Satho as a fellow master when my character was there a few IC years ago. ^^ Bandama has at least one Satho-darkelf alchemist as well. I'd bet it would be possible for an evil-minded soul to be a scribe if they had their heart set on it.

Though all Sathos are currently banned from Arborea (hopefully temporarily? Insert-rant-here-about-not-fun-for-anyone) for now. I wish the layman guilds were much, much more spread out in the game world, or had branches in other territories and cities.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: The State of PVP

#6 Post by Delia » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:17 am

Layman guild branches would make more sense than evils and goodies mingling together. Personally I think the open Arborea policy was horrible and did not make any sense IG even if it was much nicer for players. Either change Arborea to pro-evil or change evils to much less evil. Having more options in seperate regions would be the sweetest.

Arborea is pretty horrible for your standard elf too, you cannot be the proud elf and stand by Elvandar... You have to do everything in Arborea. Arborea really should be this terrible imperialistic conquering force and everything else its colonies :P
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Melendil
Veteran
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:44 am

Re: The State of PVP

#7 Post by Melendil » Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:31 am

Perhaps the Underground would be best placed, lorewise, to host more guilds? To begin with, dwarves are portrayed as avid craftsmen, also with their dedication to Zhakrin they wouldn't much care about good or evil alignment. Plus the Underground always seems a little lifeless, it'd be nice to see it more used.

isengoo
Champion
Posts: 828
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:38 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#8 Post by isengoo » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:54 am

I see the main problem of PvP as simply a damage numbers game. Currently, once you reach a certain point, your damage is insane and cannot be overcome by anything other than equally insane damage. This heavily favors light fighters wielding powerful artifacts because speed and first strike is everything. Equally sized fighters, one wearing plate with big con and str, and the other wearing leathers with big agility, the light fighter will win every time, either with instant death crits or disarms (unless the str user gets a very lucky counter attack). Personally, I think the critical hit bonus of agility should be reduced, and plate defences increased so things aren't over so quickly. I also think upper end spell damage needs to be reduced, while lower end needs to be increased. Linear progression instead of exponential progression. This could also apply to twohanded damage overall. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

Delmon
Champion
Posts: 751
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: USA

Re: The State of PVP

#9 Post by Delmon » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:19 am

I disagree as a goodie you need to gank a Sathos or Order member to win a pvp fight. If you are referring to fighting evils with 100+ days (and to Delia's point a heavy focus on fighting skills and stats), you would need to be equally aged, with a well built stats and high skills, yes you may need to gank. You do need to be a guilded character as well. But to say a crusader with similar skills and stats couldn't win one on one on its own, using the buffs and resources of the guild, I would challenge that.

isengoo
Champion
Posts: 828
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:38 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#10 Post by isengoo » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:47 am

My point isn't necessarily about guilds and their abilities, just the balance of fighting styles. Good light fighters are too strong against evil heavy fighters as well.

Delmon
Champion
Posts: 751
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:19 pm
Location: USA

Re: The State of PVP

#11 Post by Delmon » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:39 pm

My previous comment was directed towards one of lauriert's premises and his recommendation to nerf all the evil guilds, not heavy vs light fighting (which is a different conversation but completely applicable to the "state of pvp" title!).

ferranifer
Champion
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:16 am
Location: Europe CET

Re: The State of PVP

#12 Post by ferranifer » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:48 pm

I'm with Isen on this. Both Sathos and Order are set to be excellent light fighter one-shot wonders. They are not alone on this though. I agree that the current balance of damage vs defenses greatly favours the suicide bomber alpha strike strategy. It is incredibly effective and any character that capitalizes on crit/damage output and temporary immunities will decimate the playing field. This is a chronic issue with the damage and power progression model of the game by the way. In 2001 we were already having arguments about the power of two-handers, which is exactly the same issue.

I don't agree that the evil guilds are balanced to be stronger than the non-evil guilds. All you have to to is look at the game currently. The strongest characters are not sathos nor order. The issue is one of mentality rather than guild setup. Minmaxers and overachievers naturally lean to the guilds that promote individual might and independent accomplishment. The evil guilds are setup to hold individualistic characters, due to the general setup of the world and the game's population and social dynamics.

As for young evils, I would love to see them! As Abbadon, I tried to recruit a few of them, even knowing that they were clueless about the game and the world. And here is where the problem started. The small characters simply did not know enough about the game to survive in the incredibly hostile anti-evil setup of the world. Even after they were granted leeway by their to-be natural enemies, they still struggled to deal with the social boundaries. I won't type names but you all know which characters I'm talking about.

After trying this, I saw that only alts of enfranchised characters have a chance to survive as a small evil. This is a shame in my opinion, but I could not think on a way to address it.

To support true newbie/small evils, the game has to change in ways that would go against the core setup of many, many things. Crusaders, Elvandar, Asador, services, support, strife. Arborea, which is the only place where it has remotely worked, barely supported evil personalities that behaved themselves due to the cojoined effort of a few players over many, many years. It takes one unhinged character to destroy that. The world of Geas is one of ruthless religious conflict and extreme polarization. It could help to create a list of all the features/mechanics that would need to change to alter this, but at that point .. is it Geas anymore?

Finally, a thought. What happens when a knowledgeable player makes a character they know is gonna go evil/darkelf from the get go? They isolate and grind until they can be competitive, because they know this is the only way. They are only small temporarily and by the time they become large enough to compete, they have a thirst to put their hard work to use and demonstrate their strength to everyone. At that point it is already too late and it either adds something to the rest of the game or it doesn't depending on the personality of the player behind the character. It is exactly the same for characters that are not evil. We've all seen incredibly strong min-maxed crusaders, shaolin and tanielites in the hands of that kind of player before. The game does not really need to do anything to either empower/depower or support enfranchised new evil characters. It's the true newbies that need the help.

Lauriert
Master
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#13 Post by Lauriert » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:22 pm

I've heard the complaint in the past, both by myself and others, that while they want to play an evil character, they're turned away by the massive amounts of grinding required to become evil and not get killed all the time. They don't want to invest 100+ days of play time into an alt. And that's something I don't think anyone will dispute, the average power level of evils is quite high. The way the game is structured now kind of requires that. If the evils were more supported for newbies and growing as an evil character, the power level would be a lot more mixed. There would be weaker evil characters to fight the weaker good chars.

As for why I talked about guild nerfing... it's pretty simple. If you think the crusade compares to the order, you must be joking. No, I'm not talking about the average power level of order members vs crusade. I'm talking about guild abilities (which, by the way, the most powerful characters active in recent memory have been Mogwai and Nadie, both of the order, not that it's the order that makes them that way). I'm not a crusader on any character, but I have been under their buffs before. In the nicest terms possible... they don't do jack. I've never seen any noticeable improvement as a result of crusader buffs. This is excluding iron will of course, but iron will isn't going to swing a fight heavily in your favor it's just going to be a decent help. As far as I can tell, the buff the order gets from consuming a heart is absolutely nuts, especially when considering how easy it is to meet that condition. So yes, there is definitely imbalance there. As for the clergies... I will just wait and see if anyone is going to try to say that Taniel's clergy is in any way a match for Sathonys's in terms of their miracles.

Laewyloth
Journeyman
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:35 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#14 Post by Laewyloth » Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:44 pm

Lauriert wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:22 pm As for the clergies... I will just wait and see if anyone is going to try to say that Taniel's clergy is in any way a match for Sathonys's in terms of their miracles.
I'll bite!
  • A passive, long-lasting anti-melee buff that can deal -extreme- damage when the priest is in the front row and being hit?
  • A 'far' cast-range (i.e. castable from the third row against any opponent in any row) direct damage spell?
  • A group-wide combination heal + damage spell?
I think you're going to find it preeeeeeeeeeetty hard for anyone to say "Taniel Priests are under powered"

Lauriert
Master
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#15 Post by Lauriert » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:02 pm

1. Ice skin only works if you hit the user with an unarmed strike
2. Taniel's damage spell is super underwhelming, especially compared to bone spear. And the idea you can snipe with it is A. applicable to bone spear too and B. Irrelevant in the context of a 1v1.
3. Healing is rather irrelevant in the face of miracles that do loads of damage -and- cause heavy bleeding
Last edited by Lauriert on Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

ila
Master
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:30 am

Re: The State of PVP

#16 Post by ila » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:09 pm

gone
Last edited by ila on Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lauriert
Master
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#17 Post by Lauriert » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:16 pm

They are from the experience of someone who played a Taniel priest actively for years and years. Not me, someone I know.

And even if those things were true, how does it balance them with Sathos in any capacity? Sathos can cast bone spear, one miracle, and cause heavy damage and bloodloss. Tanielites need to heal -and- clot it, two miracles. In the time it takes a Tanielite to do both, the Satho can just cast bone spear again!

Laewyloth
Journeyman
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:35 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#18 Post by Laewyloth » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:30 pm

As someone who has -played- a Taniel priest, recently - and has seen the other side as well...erm.

I'm going to disagree here. Taniel priests are extremely powerful.
  • EDITED: I was actually wrong here, my apologies! I looked back through my logs and it -did- only seem to trigger on unarmed attacks or touch-based skills.
    Ice skin absolutely does -not- require an unarmed strike to trigger. At all. Any 'touch' action or melee attack has a chance to trigger it.
  • Waterlance is absolutely comparable to bone-spear, sans bleeding. I will give the edge to bonespear here, but - and without being positive (I'd look to Sathonites to tell me yes / no) I feel like waterlance, being castable from the third row -to any other row- might be better than bonespear?
  • A spell which can heal (and no, it's not a negligible amount) -everyone- in your group -and- damage everyone of the opposite alignment (i.e. not just one person) is kiiiinda powerful. Is it more powerful in situations where you're fighting lots of NPCS vs a single PC? Sure. But that does -not- mean Holy Word is in any way, shape, or form 'less powerful' or 'less useful' in comparison to Sathos miracles.
Edited to call out my error!
Last edited by Laewyloth on Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lauriert
Master
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: The State of PVP

#19 Post by Lauriert » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:37 pm

At what point, pray tell, has ice skin ever been triggered with an armed strike? I'd like to see a log of that because if that was true, Taniel would be unstoppable. Even if waterlance wasn't trash as I remember it being, we're totally ignoring Sathonys's other miracles. Earthquake prevents people from escaping. Darkness varies, it can either be a win button or completely irrelevant depending on preparation levels. Curse is just silly. And the ability to set up revenants, well... yes I know revenants aren't a huge deal for pvp given that they can't move, but they're still powerful nonetheless.

ila
Master
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:30 am

Re: The State of PVP

#20 Post by ila » Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:43 pm

gone
Last edited by ila on Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply