The State of PVP

[Laewyloth]

Edited my post above, Lauriert - you were correct, all my logs actually showed me being hit by unarmed attacks or touch-based skills. -Not- weapon hits.

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[Lauriert]

It's biggest purpose is to counter slay living as well as shao-lin moves. Ice skin is a good miracle, I won't dispute that. I just don't think it puts them to the power of the Satho clergy. My point is that in a 1v1 duel between a Taniel and a Satho of equal strength as characters, the Satho will probably win.

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[Lauriert]

Exactly, yes. The evils are built for solo, the goods for grouping. As things are now, it's really hard to get a good 1v1 fight. So, I think if we let people start evil, the numbers on each side would even out to where they don't have to be designed that way. And maybe guilds on both sides can be changed to be viable in groups or solo in their own ways. And by the way, Asrals are a complete insult to balance but that's for another discussion.

I guess "nerf" is the wrong word for evil guilds. More like, make all guilds on both sides have benefits for solo and group, balancing the guilds with each other while also allowing both sides to have newbies grow up within them.

[Delmon]

@ Laur, I like the idea of having a more newbie friendly evil guild or a more friendly evil path, but to say that you cannot play a crusader or a taniel cleric verse a sathonys cleric or an order member is absurd. Completely anecdotal, my guildless elf killed a strong human order member one vs. one after being ambushed. My crusader at 9 days old turtled and "ran off" a strong order member after it got sniped by a crossbow bolt from a watchtower. To use your own example, Mogwai was a crusader for a long time and beat up evils one vs. one easily. Crusaders and cleric have buffs (they work), they have unicorns (including charge), they have watchtowers, they have good weapons and armors. They have a great network of allies to A) quest with and gain experience and B) fight together. Taniel clerics can use smite and can one-shot undead if they want to turtle which is very strong and they have some of the best swords in the game. I've played all 4 guilds. There are plenty of forum posts saying the exact opposite about goodies being weaker, which is that evils are too hard to play and need buffing so they are viable. I don't think that's the case either. To me, it comes down to who is playing and how and what character they are using, taking advantage of the opportunities presented, etc.

@Isengorn,
As for heavy armors, it could use a little love such as lower the negative affects such as slower attack speed and allow users to use more specials to make it more fun. This could encourage the newbie skill level grind that comes along with it (it's fairly slow going fighting). On the plus side of heavy armors, you can "afk" kill npcs rather than worry about the bleeding caused from an npc that plagues light fighters. You can also tank very well against multiple enemies and have immunity to extended fire dmg. Heavy armors are great for cleric builds as the attack time is constant no matter the armor used. And it does lower the 1 shot hit chance relative to light armours.

[Lauriert]

@Delmon Are you talking about Garric?

[Delmon]

No

[Lauriert]

Let's make one thing clear. Trying to use Mogwai, Skragna, Mathias, or Adanath as a point of reference for how strong the crusade is doesn't work. Those characters would be super strong no matter what guild they're put in. Those 4 are so strong they can brute force past any present guild imbalance. I've had the effects of crusade buffs many, many times. They don't do jack, I swear.

[Israfel]

I play a Crusader.
I haven't played Order or Satho.
My experience is anecdotal.
I don't think Crusaders need to be buffed or our enemy guilds nerfed.
I agree heavy/tanky builds seem to be currently outmatched in 1v1 PvP. On the other hand I don't know if 1v1 PvP should be the measure of worth for all guilds/builds/skills.

Going back to Lauriert's original post, I'd support more ways to see newbies engaging in the PvP side of the game, including joining and participating in guild play. Constantly rebalancing the game so that everyone can feel like they have some weight to throw around in PvP duels is the wrong way to go I think. It relies too much on anecdote and can also diminish the work some people have put in over OOC years to earn their spots in the food chain. I'd much prefer to see all sides populated with characters at a variety of levels because your experience of the game does change as you level and I believe some of the most fun is had at the lower end of the level scale. Guilds should be treated as serious commitments for characters, but they would be a blast to play through the lower levels with well-matched opposition. Ideally, new characters should naturally be able to find their match in the enemy ranks, with other smaller players who have maybe just played their guildless newbiehood as an Asadorian and are now taking their first steps into an opposing guild.

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[Delia]

I personally cannot see pvp having "balance" or having epic 1v1 fights by changing code somehow. Greatest change is attainable by the players themselves by coming up with rules of engagement that would make pvp more structured and fun. It is not all dismal though and pvp can be fun too but as it has been said, high level pvp quickly turns into a cold war simulator where the aggressor usually wins. This creates an environment which can lead to stress and mistrust as the person to first type in an attack command has a great advantage.

The negative consequenses of this are felt by everyone - someone tries to indulge in fun rp and posturing, thus wilfully forfeiting the mechanical advantage of striking first and gets killed. Next time around the lesson is learned and the game devolves into a game of tag where thr only communication is done with attack commands. Sure, that can be fun too but somehow the actual fighting has always been a bummer and a drag in pvp. When you are too small you get discouraged as you cannot complete due mathematical improbabilities and when you are too big you just feel bad about swatting flies. Finding that elusive balanced moment is nigh impossible due the nature of online games but the experience can be made much more enjoyable by us players if we choose to.

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[ghalt]

Good guilds have far too much power to effectively shun players from the game. It's completely disparate from any pvp duel fight-battle mechanics.

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[Delia]

Changing good guilds would probably mean needing to change the evil guilds too. Meaning, changing the game to a less polarized one. Less pure evil, less pure good, lots of gray. Could be a good topic for some other thread?

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[Delia]

Uh, it is not all about you. Any changes regarding the game should be made regarding the game as a whole, IMHO.

Edit:

If I'm forced to play evil, could I get some badguy advantages? Like, maybe Sathonys or Lilith could take me under their wing and teach me some real dark sorcery? I'd probably be less resentful if that were the case and I actually signed up to be evil, but there's not really "evil mage" route.

Mages have plenty of "evil" spells and they can be good, evil, or totally indifferent. As such they can be anything you set out to be and you can affirm those decisions with actions you take as a player. The mage system is also still beta with plenty of room for tweaks, changes and development. I am pretty sure there is room for absolute evil and good in there too if it is desired.

Just remembered mages do have absolute evil spells at their disposal too. There just is no way to gain a mechanical advantage from worshipping an evil deity, or any deity for that matter as a mage, save for the advantages worshipping a deity provides in itself.

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[Delia]

You have the power to change all that at your fingertips, should you choose to do so. Like everyone playing this game. Assigning blame never helps any party. I am sure it is not very easy though but no situation resolves itself nor any playerarch can really do anything concrete about it unless someone steps up and starts being the bigger person and rises above it all.